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From: James A Coons
Subject: Re: Rules violations?
Date: 9 Nov 2004 10:35:01
Message: <web.41909c4ea5a3c645d1d60310@news.povray.org>
Since there is a 250K file size limit on submissions, I think it is
necessary to allow resizing and recompression. I render to TGA at 1024x768
for the best quality, then compress to JPEG for final submission. However,
I may have to shrink it to meet the 250K size. I can do this by (a) JPEG
Compression, (b) resizing or (c) JPEG Compression and resizing. If resizing
and compression is NOT to be allowed, then the size limitations should be
removed OR a standard image resolution should be determined. At any rate,
you will never make everyone happy. When I resize an image (up or down), I
have the option within ThumbsPlus to "resample" the image, which in effect,
does a sort of "blurring" on the image. If I turn off the resampling
option, then I get HORRIBLE pixelation, especially if I have rendered in
POV-Ray without good anti-aliasing.

Without doing a lot of test renders, it might be difficult to come up with a
good resolution that would both produce a high-quality image and fit within
the 250K File Size.

Technically, the "spirit" of post-processing is the issue, which is why it
is (so far) legal to insert a Title/copyright, resize the image, convert
file formats and JPEG compression.

One entry in the "Toys and Games" competition indicated that the contrast
was adjusted, which to me was a violation of the rules. Consequently, I
gave it a low rating. The resulting "contrast-adjusted" image might produce
an image that would be impossible to achieve directly within the renderer,
which should be one criteria for exclusion of the post-processing.

Also, I think that certain renderers have advantages over POV-Ray, which at
times makes the competition seem unfair (however, I'm not complaining).
Also, if I don't have access to (or don't choose to use) other, more
advanced tools (such as Splineditor, Spatch, 3DS, TerraGen, image_maps,
etc), it instantly becomes more difficult to generate "advanced" images.
That is why during the competition, I "notice" what tools were used in
comparison to what was produced, file comments, descriptions, etc, and
score accordingly.

Of course, one wouldn't normally expect a first-time entrant to produce the
same quality results as someone that has done it for years and has access
to several advanced tools. Sorry, I seem to have diverted from the topic.


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From: Warp
Subject: Re: Rules violations?
Date: 9 Nov 2004 11:18:01
Message: <4190a769@news.povray.org>
James A Coons <jac### [at] ameritechnet> wrote:
> Since there is a 250K file size limit on submissions, I think it is
> necessary to allow resizing and recompression. I render to TGA at 1024x768
> for the best quality, then compress to JPEG for final submission. However,
> I may have to shrink it to meet the 250K size.

  It might be a good idea for the IRTC to increase that size limit a bit
(eg. to 512kB or whatever) specially since the pixel size restrictions
have been removed some time ago.
  I think that the idea of the file size restriction is that people
(specially the judges) should be able to download the images in a
reasonable time with slow connections.

  In my experience it's quite unusual that a 1024x768 image cannot be
converted to a 250kB JPEG without the image quality degrading visibly,
specially if you start fine-tuning the JPEG compression parameters (with
programs which support adjusting them, such as the gimp or cjpeg).
  There are some pathological images which seem to get artifacts (when
using default compression parameters) no matter what you do. A typical
example is a red area right next to a blue area. However, these artifacts
can usually be greatly reduced without the file size growing too much
by setting a finer sampling (ie. 1x1,1x1,1x1 instead of the default).

-- 
plane{-x+y,-1pigment{bozo color_map{[0rgb x][1rgb x+y]}turbulence 1}}
sphere{0,2pigment{rgbt 1}interior{media{emission 1density{spherical
density_map{[0rgb 0][.5rgb<1,.5>][1rgb 1]}turbulence.9}}}scale
<1,1,3>hollow}text{ttf"timrom""Warp".1,0translate<-1,-.1,2>}//  - Warp -


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From: =Bob=
Subject: Re: Rules violations?
Date: 10 Nov 2004 13:32:47
Message: <4192187f@news.povray.org>
"James A Coons" <jac### [at] ameritechnet> wrote in message
news:web.41909c4ea5a3c645d1d60310@news.povray.org...
[deletions]

: One entry in the "Toys and Games" competition indicated that the contrast
: was adjusted, which to me was a violation of the rules. Consequently, I
: gave it a low rating. The resulting "contrast-adjusted" image might produce
: an image that would be impossible to achieve directly within the renderer,
: which should be one criteria for exclusion of the post-processing.

Then you might not have not judged fairly. I would believe judges
should be aware of the rules, from irtc:

=======================================================
Images must not be enhanced or altered ('post-processed') by use of
paint programs such as PhotoShop(tm) etc. There are exceptions to
this rule:

You may convert images to JPEG format.

You may add text information (name, title, email address, copyright.
etc...) to your image.

You may gamma-correct and contrast/brightness adjust the image.
=======================================================

=Bob=


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From: Le Forgeron
Subject: Re: Rules violations?
Date: 10 Nov 2004 13:56:04
Message: <Xns959D97EC1EEE8jgrimbertmeandmyself@203.29.75.35>
"=Bob=" <robertUNDERSCOREdobbinsATmailDOTtdsDOTnet> a écrit :

> "James A Coons" <jac### [at] ameritechnet> wrote in message
> news:web.41909c4ea5a3c645d1d60310@news.povray.org... [deletions]
> 
>: One entry in the "Toys and Games" competition indicated that the
>: contrast was adjusted, which to me was a violation of the rules.
>: Consequently, I gave it a low rating. The resulting
>: "contrast-adjusted" image might produce an image that would be
>: impossible to achieve directly within the renderer, which should be
>: one criteria for exclusion of the post-processing. 
> 
> Then you might not have not judged fairly. I would believe judges
> should be aware of the rules, from irtc:
> 
> =======================================================
> Images must not be enhanced or altered ('post-processed') by use of
> paint programs such as PhotoShop(tm) etc. There are exceptions to
> this rule:
> 
> You may convert images to JPEG format.
> 
> You may add text information (name, title, email address, copyright.
> etc...) to your image.
> 
> You may gamma-correct and contrast/brightness adjust the image.
> =======================================================

What about Framing (adding black border) ?


I unfairly judge it breaking the rules, and divide my technical vote for 
it by 2 (only).


-- 
La mondialisation ou la délocalisation, non; L'autarcie ouverte, oui!

L'égalité des sexes ne sera une réalité que lorsqu'il y aura autant
d'entreprises, surfaces de vente et diversité de propositions tant pour 
l'habillement, les chaussures que le maquillage et les accessoires.


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From: =Bob=
Subject: Re: Rules violations?
Date: 10 Nov 2004 22:32:46
Message: <4192970e@news.povray.org>
"Le Forgeron" <jgr### [at] freelocalhost> wrote in message
news:Xns959D97EC1EEE8jgrimbertmeandmyself@203.29.75.35...
:
: What about Framing (adding black border) ?

Seems to me it clearly violates the post-processing rule.
=Bob=


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From: macdonaldj
Subject: Re: Rules violations?
Date: 12 Nov 2004 23:20:00
Message: <web.4195447ca5a3c64529b705920@news.povray.org>
"=Bob=" <robertUNDERSCOREdobbinsATmailDOTtdsDOTnet> wrote:
> "James A Coons" <jac### [at] ameritechnet> wrote in message
news:web.41909c4ea5a3c645d1d60310@news.povray.org...
> [deletions]
>
> : One entry in the "Toys and Games" competition indicated that the contrast
> : was adjusted, which to me was a violation of the rules. Consequently, I
> : gave it a low rating. The resulting "contrast-adjusted" image might produce
> : an image that would be impossible to achieve directly within the renderer,
> : which should be one criteria for exclusion of the post-processing.
>
> Then you might not have not judged fairly. I would believe judges
> should be aware of the rules, from irtc:
>
> =======================================================
> Images must not be enhanced or altered ('post-processed') by use of
> paint programs such as PhotoShop(tm) etc. There are exceptions to
> this rule:
>
> You may convert images to JPEG format.
>
> You may add text information (name, title, email address, copyright.
> etc...) to your image.
>
> You may gamma-correct and contrast/brightness adjust the image.
> =======================================================
>
> =Bob=

Well, James, I guess it was my image you marked down - perhaps you thought
because I didn't use Povray that I wouldn't come by here :).  No hard
feelings but as Bob has pointed out, brightness/contrast correction *is*
allowed - I hope you are able to adjust your score appropriately ? :)

Julian


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From: Eero Ahonen
Subject: Re: Rules violations?
Date: 13 Nov 2004 07:43:10
Message: <4195bb0e@news.povray.org>
Le Forgeron wrote:
>>=======================================================
>>Images must not be enhanced or altered ('post-processed') by use of
>>paint programs such as PhotoShop(tm) etc. There are exceptions to
>>this rule:
>>
>>You may convert images to JPEG format.
>>
>>You may add text information (name, title, email address, copyright.
>>etc...) to your image.
>>
>>You may gamma-correct and contrast/brightness adjust the image.
>>=======================================================
> 
> 
> What about Framing (adding black border) ?

While braking the rules if it's done post-processing, it could also be 
done in rendering time; fe. adding 4 materialess boxes near the cam in 
exactly right place (and, of course, without shadows, hollow etc).

-Aero with 3 IRTC tryouts (but none of them bordered;)


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From: gonzo
Subject: Re: Rules violations?
Date: 13 Nov 2004 22:44:02
Message: <41968e32@news.povray.org>
=Bob= wrote:

> Then you might not have not judged fairly. I would believe judges
> should be aware of the rules, from irtc:
> 
> =======================================================
> Images must not be enhanced or altered ('post-processed') by use of
> paint programs such as PhotoShop(tm) etc. There are exceptions to
> this rule:
> 
> You may convert images to JPEG format.
> 
> You may add text information (name, title, email address, copyright.
> etc...) to your image.
> 
> You may gamma-correct and contrast/brightness adjust the image.
> =======================================================
> 
> =Bob=

While this is permitted by the rules, there is still a "spirit" or 
"intent" to those rules.

I certainly don't have a problem with someone making a 5% adjustment of 
brightness, which can be simply correcting the difference as seen on 2 
different monitors. That is clearly a "normal correction", and well 
within the intent of the rules. (And one I wish I had made on my "Great 
Inventions" entry which looked great on my girlfriend's LCD when I 
submitted it, but was WAY darker on my CRT when I viewed it at home...)

On the other hand, a 50% brightness combined with a 65% contrast would 
be completely changing the rendered image and goes well beyond what I 
would perceive as the intent of the rules.

Probably (fortunately) not a common occurance, but there was an entry in 
one round (surreal maybe, I forget which) that looked like it was a 
fairly simple image that had been heavily tweaked with contrast to get a 
very striking effect, and I remember marking it down because there just 
didn't seem to be any way it could have been rendered like that. I also 
recall it getting a few comments about not explaining in the .txtfile 
how that was done, so I guess I'm not the only one who thought so.

I guess its all pretty subjective how people score those. Where is the 
line between normal corrective adjustments and artistic tweaking? If I 
had made the adjustment on my "Great Inventions" entry would anyone have 
known the difference? Especially since I later re-rendered the image 
myself with a .1 difference in assumed_gamma and got pretty much the 
same thing, so it could be done in the renderer.

RG


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From: macdonaldj
Subject: Re: Rules violations?
Date: 14 Nov 2004 13:35:00
Message: <web.41975e99a5a3c64581f429730@news.povray.org>
gonzo <rgo### [at] lansetcom> wrote:
> =Bob= wrote:
>
> > Then you might not have not judged fairly. I would believe judges
> > should be aware of the rules, from irtc:
> >
> > =======================================================
> > Images must not be enhanced or altered ('post-processed') by use of
> > paint programs such as PhotoShop(tm) etc. There are exceptions to
> > this rule:
> >
> > You may convert images to JPEG format.
> >
> > You may add text information (name, title, email address, copyright.
> > etc...) to your image.
> >
> > You may gamma-correct and contrast/brightness adjust the image.
> > =======================================================
> >
> > =Bob=
>
> While this is permitted by the rules, there is still a "spirit" or
> "intent" to those rules.
>
> I certainly don't have a problem with someone making a 5% adjustment of
> brightness, which can be simply correcting the difference as seen on 2
> different monitors. That is clearly a "normal correction", and well
> within the intent of the rules. (And one I wish I had made on my "Great
> Inventions" entry which looked great on my girlfriend's LCD when I
> submitted it, but was WAY darker on my CRT when I viewed it at home...)
>
> On the other hand, a 50% brightness combined with a 65% contrast would
> be completely changing the rendered image and goes well beyond what I
> would perceive as the intent of the rules.
>
> Probably (fortunately) not a common occurance, but there was an entry in
> one round (surreal maybe, I forget which) that looked like it was a
> fairly simple image that had been heavily tweaked with contrast to get a
> very striking effect, and I remember marking it down because there just
> didn't seem to be any way it could have been rendered like that. I also
> recall it getting a few comments about not explaining in the .txtfile
> how that was done, so I guess I'm not the only one who thought so.
>
> I guess its all pretty subjective how people score those. Where is the
> line between normal corrective adjustments and artistic tweaking? If I
> had made the adjustment on my "Great Inventions" entry would anyone have
> known the difference? Especially since I later re-rendered the image
> myself with a .1 difference in assumed_gamma and got pretty much the
> same thing, so it could be done in the renderer.
>
> RG

Oh great !  So now we have not only to follow the rules of the competition
but also we have to second guess the thoughts of any judges who might read
between the lines of the rules :)  While I understand what you are saying,
rules are rules and should be interpreted as the boundaries within which
your image should be judged fairly.  If you think the rules are not good
enough then make suggestions to change them - don't unfairly disadvantage
those of us who have spent considerable time and effort making images for
this competition in good faith!

For the record (and not that it should matter), I *did* only make subtle
changes in brightness/contrast.  You shouldn't punish honesty - I could
have not even mentioned the fact and you would have been none the wiser
(and maybe would have got a fair vote).

Julian


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From: Warp
Subject: Re: Rules violations?
Date: 14 Nov 2004 18:51:49
Message: <4197a945@news.povray.org>
macdonaldj <nomail@nomail> wrote:
> Oh great !  So now we have not only to follow the rules of the competition
> but also we have to second guess the thoughts of any judges who might read
> between the lines of the rules :)

  This is one of the reasons why I strongly think that the only
allowable post-processing should be conversion to jpeg, nothing else.

  Having rules of type "you are allowed to do this, but don't overabuse
it" leaves room for controversy.

  (And naturally since brightness/contrast adjustment as well as image
resizing can be used to greatly enhance the visual quality of the image,
something which the renderer itself was perhaps uncapable of doing, this
strongly contradicts the spirit of the competition.)

-- 
plane{-x+y,-1pigment{bozo color_map{[0rgb x][1rgb x+y]}turbulence 1}}
sphere{0,2pigment{rgbt 1}interior{media{emission 1density{spherical
density_map{[0rgb 0][.5rgb<1,.5>][1rgb 1]}turbulence.9}}}scale
<1,1,3>hollow}text{ttf"timrom""Warp".1,0translate<-1,-.1,2>}//  - Warp -


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