On Wed, 19 Jan 2011 20:28:07 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:

> Why hedge the matter and say "some would say". 

Because while you believe there is no difference, some believe there is.  
Who am I to say they're (or you're, or - for that matter - I'm) wrong?

> There is hardly any
> difference at all between someone ringing a bell, to scare off evil Kami
> at the new year, or someone putting on the same shirt they did the last
> time their team won. The only real difference is that one is followed by
> a lot of people, the other, just by one. Its still the same thing. The
> only thing making Prayer different is that it often includes a process
> which "can" sometimes trigger the same effects as meditation, where as
> ringing a magic bell, or wearing a particular shirt, doesn't.

Depends on the individual.  In both cases one can make the argument that 
correlation does not imply causation.  So what?

> Mind, this wouldn't stop some people arguing that this was evidence of
> something "different" going on, then insisting that "different" means
> "spooks and 2,000 year old zombies".

That doesn't mean there's a need to be offensive to those who take 
comfort in wearing the red shirt to the basketball game, or to those who 
take comfort in saying a prayer to a deity, real or not.

Similarly, I have on occasion used Tarot cards to help clarify my 
thinking on topics.  In my opinion, one has to read the cards 
themselves.  Why?  Because there's absolutely nothing mystical about them 
(or about astrology, for that matter).  They're nothing more than systems 
to help one frame thinking about something.

I haven't had to use that particular method to identify my own 
motivations on something (or to help me think rationally about a decision 
I was about to make) for quite some time.

Some people who read Tarot cards (especially for other people) look at 
the results and say "it's mysticism" because the results are often what 
people want.

But the principle at work, I think, really is confirmation bias.

Last time I seriously used the cards was deciding whether or not to take 
a new job.  I was having trouble focusing on what was important for me 
and what was important for my family.  We talked about it and went back 
and forth, and I decided that I'd use a system to help me frame my 
thoughts.

Now, ultimately, I knew I wanted to take the new job.  I knew it was a 
good decision, but I had some doubts.

So I put the cards down in a prescribed pattern where every single card 
has a specific meaning based on where it is.  And I referred to an 
interpretation of the individual cards' meanings that helped me organize 
my thoughts.

And after I used that technique to clarify my thinking and what I wanted 
out of a new job, I accepted the offer.

Nothing mystical about it at all.  I used a system to identify what I 
wanted and to identify/weigh the pros and cons before making a decision.

Now, if someone decides to say a prayer to a deity in order to make a 
decision and as a result of framing their thoughts for this deity 
(whether it exists or not is immaterial), is able to make a clear 
decision.

Some call that divine intervention.  You and I call it applying reason.  
In either case, a decision is reached and if it goes well, whomever 
credit goes to, a positive result is reached.

It's really no different than what I used to do when faced with a 
particularly challenging IT problem - I'd call my wife.  I found that in 
explaining the problem to her, I could often find the solution, but the 
act of trying to explain it to someone who's not an IT professional 
really helped me understand the issue better.

So there again, I don't think it's necessary to be offensive to those who 
are happy to believe that some supernatural power intervened - whether 
that's the case or not.

Jim

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