On 12/13/09 17:14, Warp wrote:
> Gilles Tran<gil### [at] gmailcom>  wrote:
>> Problems with minarets: zero.
>
>    You deliberately fail to consider the *symbological* meaning of minarets,
> especially considering the teachings of islam with regard to non-islamic
> people and countries.

1. What do minarets have to do with the teachings of Islam with regards 
to non-Islamic people and countries?

2. You're suggesting people should pass laws that criminalize acts for 
/symbolic/ reasons?

>    You don't have to hear what muslim religious leaders and scholars are
> teaching from "racists" and "xenophobes". You can hear it from themselves.
> And it's not something which they are exclusively teaching in their own
> home countries, far from here. It's something which they are teaching in
> mosques right here, in Europe. Just watch that documentary about people
> who actually inflitrated British mosques to see what they were preaching
> there.
>
>    But of course it's so comforting to ignore such things.

	What Gilles said was factually correct. I'm not sure I see how your 
statements above are responding to what he said. He even acknowledges to 
a degree:

"If the right-wing party behind the referendum had been talking about 
actual Islam-related issues, it could have made some sense,..."

>> It's a completely bogus
>> controversy fueled deliberately by off-the-shelf xenophobia. It's a frigging
>> shame to see that in 2009 in Europe.
>
>    You, my friend, are a victim of multiculturalist propaganda. You have
> swallowed hook, line and sinker.
>
>    The reason why many Europeans dislike islamic cultures is not xenophobia.
> If it was xenophobia, they would dislike other foreign cultures with the
> same fervor. Most of these people who dislike islamic cultures have absolutely
> no problems with, for example, Chinese, Japanese, Indians or South Americans,
> even though their cultures are religions are often radically different from
> the European ones.
>
>    No, the reason why islamic cultures are disliked is because of how those
> cultures view basic human rights, such as their attitude towards women and
> sexual minorities (such as homosexuals), their attitude towards other
> religions (see, for example, how many religions are allowed to be publicly
> preached in the core islamic countries of middle east), and their attitude
> towards the basic concept of constitutional freedom, such as depicted here:
>
> http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/muslimprotest.asp
>
>    These Europeans also dislike the fact that so many muslims are offered a
> place to live and work, yet these muslim start making obnoxious and
> ridiculous demands instead of respecting their hosting society and culture.
>
>    For example Chinese, Japanese, Indian and South American people living
> in Europe do not behave in that way nor exhibit such low views on basic
> human rights in such a grand scale, which is why they are accepted. In
> other words, those people respect others and know how to behave and be
> a productive part of the society they are living in.
>
>    Blaming the dislike of muslims to "xenophobia" is trying to obscure the
> real problems by replacing them with invented ones.

	Once again, why not enact laws that actually address the issue? That's 
what Gilles seemed to be talking about (as well as myself). The UK did, 
to an extent. Their anti-terrorism laws are more draconian than the 
Patriot Act here. As well as their passing laws related to forced 
marriages, etc. Holland recently passed similar rules with regards to 
new immigrants - forcing them to be informed of cultural aspects that 
they are required by law to accept (homosexuality, etc).

	One problem with your rhetoric here and in other messages is the 
overgeneralization - not just of Muslims but of Europe. What's 
interesting to me if that none of the articles I read on the issue 
(which, admittedly, was a few) actually properly addressed the concerns 
the Swiss had with Muslims. Sure, a few quoted the local population, but 
that's almost useless. If Muslims were such a headache for the Swiss, 
they should actually have a proper study demonstrating the problems. And 
I mean a proper poll/study - not random news events here and there (or 
even worse, blog posts). As a third party person, I don't even know what 
the fuss is - other than it's not exactly noise, which people - 
including the Swiss - keep bringing up. Whenever I see a discussion of 
this on the Internet, the examples of bad Muslim behavior are from 
France, the UK, Holland, Sweden, and occasionally Norway and Denmark.

	Sorry, I won't generalize Muslims from all these countries, for the 
same reason that I don't look at all the non-Muslims from those 
countries as similar. The (national) cultures in the listed countries 
above are so diverse, and they're also so diverse amongst *Muslim* 
countries. You're expecting me to treat Muslims in Europe as a special 
uniform group?

-- 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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