On Wed, 02 Dec 2009 21:56:27 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>> You might find it is a larger number than you think.
> 
> I can't actually think of a real reliable way to get the real number,
> actually... Might be interesting.

There may not be a reliable way to get the real number.  Besides, the 
number of actual jobs doesn't matter that much - only the ones you apply 
for are really the ones that matter.

>>>> You could probably get a tech job with Nokia if you actually applied
>>>> for one.
>>> Do *you* have any evidence whatsoever to back up such a bold claim?
>> 
>> I can guarantee you won't get a job there if you don't apply.
> 
> This is self-evident. But that's not the statement you made. ;-)

Yes, I said you could probably get a job with them.  I believe that is a 
true statement - maybe in systems administration.  You won't know until 
you try - and even then, in the event they decline to hire you for that 
job, there's nothing that says you can't keep applying until they do hire 
you.  Like I said, it took me three interviews in three different 
departments before I got a job at Novell - and today I'm not doing what 
they originally hired me to do.

>>> They don't let just anybody work for Nokia, after all...
>> 
>> Right, they only let people who actually apply for jobs there work
>> there.
> 
> Heh, that got a chuckle.

Well, that's good - I was more or less aiming for a laugh there, while 
still making a serious point. :-)

>> You've written code I couldn't have written with the skills I've
>> developed over the years.
>> 
>> As for your writing - your spelling could be improved, yes - but so can
>> mine, and I've been a professional writer.  Big F'ing Deal.  Nobody
>> writes perfect copy 100% of the time.  I read your blog regularly, and
>> I find it generally well-written and interesting.  I track it with
>> Google Reader and every time you write a new post, I see it.
>> 
>> As for your maths skills, you understand a lot more about mathematics
>> than I do, and I took a couple of calculus courses in pursuit of a
>> engineering degree (a degree that I didn't earn because I couldn't hack
>> the integral calculus class).
> 
> I guess what it comes down to is that there isn't actually any objective
> way to determine how good I am at any of these things, so we're stuck
> with my subjective opinion. (And this varies depending on my mood...)

And I keep telling you that your subjective opinion of your own skills 
isn't important.  It's the prospective employer's subjective opinion that 
matters.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:  Most people who have very 
deep knowledge have a hard time  understanding that they've got 
significant expertise, because they know it off the top of their heads 
and it seems so easy and intuitive that they assume anyone can learn it.  
I spent years thinking I was "nothing special" because I knew my subject 
matter (directory services) as well as some of the developers who wrote 
the code.  It seemed easy and intuitive to me, and that is something that 
can be demotivating.  Even today - maybe 5 years after I stopped working 
with the technology daily - I've probably forgotten more than most people 
ever learn about the technology.  I don't say that to brag, but I say 
that because I still don't really think of myself as an expert in that 
field, but I still have people come up to me at conferences and ask me 
about the technology, and I still can pull up answers.  And not just end 
users or system administrators, but sometimes still the engineering folks 
from India seek me out to ask my opinion on things they're working on.

It feels good and at the same time feels really strange, because it 
doesn't seem that difficult to me.  But I have learned over several years 
that the reason it's easy for me is because I've spent a LOT of time 
studying it, reading about it, and even reviewing code that implements it.

What you need to do is what I do when it comes to directory technology - 
which is that I state that I've got 'x' years experience working with it 
and have studied it extensively both as part of the job and on my own.  
Then I let them decide if my knowledge was what they were looking for.

That's how I got the job with Novell, in fact.  I was hired to teach 
about the technology, and I thought "I could probably do that, even 
though I've never taught in an adult classroom setting before"; I had to 
give a 10 minute presentation on a subject of my choosing (related to the 
job I was applying for, naturally) and was evaluated on my presentation 
skills.  I actually didn't do very well in the presentation (I had 
presented at conferences before, but that's very different from teaching 
a class with labs and whatnot), but they liked my knowledge and said they 
could get my presentation skills to where they needed to be.

The job description was a Certified Novell Instructor with strong 
eDirectory skills and a few years' teaching experience.  I met one of 
those three criteria and got the job.  I had the knowledge.  I had no 
certifications and no teaching experience to speak of (I remembered after 
I was hired that I had taught a couple of classes in college and had done 
some TA work during summer school when I was younger).

>>> Erm... like I say, I don't know of anybody who had to move just to
>>> find work.
>> 
>> But you also admit that you don't know that many people.  I do know
>> people who have moved for work and who have had to move for work.
> 
> Maybe it's different outside the UK or something? IDK.

I know people inside the UK who have moved for their jobs as well.  My 
point is it's not that unusual for it to happen and isn't something to be 
feared.  Is it a risk?  Sure.  But life is generally a series of risks.

>>> Anyway, I'm not looking at stacking shelves just yet. I'm thinking
>>> about system administration - basically, doing a job like the one I
>>> currently do, but for money. Let's face it, at least I can walk into
>>> the room and say "I have *actually done this* for the last 7 years. I
>>> can prove I know how to do this."
>> 
>> That's a step in the right direction, to be sure.  So apply for
>> sysadmin jobs in the area - don't concern yourself too much with what
>> the company does - or pick a company that works in an industry you're
>> interested in. Working in IT does give a lot of flexibility because
>> systems admin work is pretty much the same everywhere, but it gives you
>> an opportunity to learn something about the business you work for as
>> well.  I did sysadmin work in companies that did manufacturing, retail,
>> pharmacies, benefits administration, and a call centers (some of the
>> jobs covered multiple areas; the benefits administration company
>> operated a call center, so I got to learn about how those work).  I
>> started each of those jobs with no prior experience in the industry.
> 
> Well, as I said, I think this will have to wait for the new year, but
> this is the next stage in my plan.

It seems a reasonable step.  Doing more sysadmin work - especially in a 
team environment (which I can tell you is great for being able to take 
time off - something very hard to do when you're the only one doing the 
work) is a good stepping stone into other areas.

Jim

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