Invisible wrote:

> Stefan Viljoen wrote:
> 
>> I disagree. My folks often say this too - just cut out the computers and
>> we'll just be less comfortable. But take down -especially- the
>> microprocessor and you likely loose
>> 
>> - traffic lights
> 
> These are not microprocessor-controlled. (This is part of the reason why
> it is impossible to "hack into" the traffic light system and turn all
> the lights green. It's not computer-controlled to start with.) More like
> just a collection of timers and electromechanical relays.

Huh? I once looked over the shoulder of a municipal sparky here (municipal 
electrician) who was working on a control unit for a traffic light in my 
town. Sure looked digital to me - chips, transistors, capacitors - couldn't 
spot any huge relays or stuff like you'd expect. And as far as I know, in 
some large US cities, fire-engines, for example, have transponders that will 
"flip" traffic lights for them as they approach. Not sure how you can do 
that electro-mechanically.
 
>> - mains electricity (I shiver to think about a nuclear plant suddenly
>> losing all computerized instrumentation and monitoring systems)
> 
> I'm fairly sure a nuclear plant would just automatically shut down. I'm
> pretty sure somebody will have thought of this.

Yes... again I must be clouded by my experience and what goes on here. Our 
one nuclear plant had all its experienced operators fired a few years ago 
and replaced with "affirmative" people - so I wouldn't be so sure. In the 
first world, you're hopefully right.
 
>> - water supply
> 
> This involves computers somehow?

Not here, but in first world countries I think so.

>> - comms of every kind (internet, wired telephone, terrestrial digital
>> radio, cellphones, fax, the works)
> 
> Apparently valves are relatively unaffected by an EMP. There are
> probably plenty of ham radio ops out there who could still keep working.

A dying breed... my dad is a radio ham, but nobody younger than him are 
taking up the hobby anymore. The general answer is "dude! it's so easy- just 
use the net!" - no need for astronomically expensive HF sets, a morse-code 
exam, etc.


>> - modern medical support (all those EKGs, MRI machines, heart-lung
>> monitors)
> 
> Yeah, most of these would be ****ed.
> 
> I don't know about EMP shielding, but these kinds of devices tend to be
> subjected to some pretty insane levels of safety testing. (Remember, I
> work in an industry indirectly related to medical devices.) And of
> course, doctors know how to do their work without machines. Obviously
> they can't work as well as they would, but they can still do something.

Granted.
 
>> - food (unless you kill the supermarket guy 'cause he won't release ANY
>> food to you - his computerized stock management system is offline, so he
>> doesn't know what he is selling, how much to order in, etc.)
> 
> I doubt the baker on the village highstreet is going to let people
> starve to death over a little computer glitch. He only uses an antique
> mechanical cash register anyway. (This is not hypothetical. I'm talking
> about an actual baker I know of within walking distance.)

We once had this situation here when the town was faced with a week or more 
with no power. The supermarket guys had to have the emergency services act 
read to them to release any food. Their answer to why not was exactly what I 
said - they couldn't track what was being sold, and the managers simply 
refused to effectively corrupt their database as to stock contents. Could 
have also just been an a-hole of a manager, but it made me think.
 
>> - access to your money
> 
> That could be fun. :-D

Yep - another issue I had to write a contingency plan on once. Everything 
would soon revert to cash, with all the concomitant stuff of extra police 
and army to prevent robberies, more security in general (since no plastic or 
debit cards could be used) etc. etc.
 
>> We actually gamed this out once when I was still in the emergency
>> services here (we had too - our national grid was at the point of
>> collapse) and it was quickly realized that society will regress so
>> quickly it will be catastrophic.
>> 
>> Granted, that was for a loss of all mains electricity, possibly for
>> weeks, but I think some elements of that apply to major failures in
>> technology, especially computer technology.
> 
> Remember the Y2K bug? The one that was supposed to make planes fall from
> the skies and nuclear reactors go into meltdown?
> 
> ...
> 
> Nah, it wasn't so bad. ;-)

Dude! I worked my *ss off - our town council here had a "just in case..." 
attitude. Guess who had to help draft contingency plans?
 
>> Hey! That means that you'd most likely have to start hunting again. That
>> isn't so bad, so I guess you got a point as well! :)
> 
> I'm wondering... All those absurdly fat people? Would they even *need*
> to eat?

Hehe probably not.

---
Stefan Viljoen

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