Warp wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> How complex can the computer get before you'd say it's a sentient being 
>> making a choice based on what it wants?  If we had SciFi levels of AI 
>> around, would you claim they're not sentient, not really making choices?
> 
>   One (maybe not completely physical) possibility would be if the
> computer/brain is able to make decision as a closed system. In other
> words, it's capable of processing and changing information, and making
> decisions without those decisions being the direct and inevitable
> consequence of external input or quantum randomness.

I understand what you're saying. I'm not seeing how that addresses any of 
those questions I asked.

Basically, I was trying to investigate what might be the cause of the 
(assumed) presence of this non-physical mechanism that's present in humans 
but not in rocks.

> The decisions may
> be *based* on the external input, but they are not the inevitable and
> deterministic consequence of it. The computer/brain might be able to
> use its own internal logic to make choices based on the input, but in a
> way that from the outside it's impossible to predict which choises will
> be made.

Sure. But for it to meet your definition, not just "impossible to predict" 
but "supernatural."  I.e., not arising from physical processes, right? I 
mean, "based on quantum randomness" is also impossible to predict, but you 
don't want to take that into account.

So you want basically for the mind to be able to react to something 
unassociated with the brain.  So those questions about an AI are 
investigating what you mean by "mind" in the case it's not necessarily a 
human or advanced animal.

>   Can such closed system exist in the physical world? Could that idea break
> some laws of physics (eg. something along the lines that new information
> cannot be generated in a closed system or something)?

Normally a "closed system" means something different than what you're 
talking about - in particular, you wouldn't be able to observe the behavior 
of a person that's a "closed system", whereas the result of the person 
making the choice is obvious to people outside. If I choose to go to the 
store today, the other shoppers are going to know that, so I'm no longer a 
closed system. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to express.

Also, yes, I *think* the amount of information in a closed system can 
neither go up nor down, hence the people worrying about the quantum effects 
of black holes, holographic universes, and stuff like that. But that's 
really beyond my understandings of QM.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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