On 08/16/09 15:10, Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> Yes, but you make it sound like a conspiracy. ;-)
>>
> Some of it likely is. We are talking about the core leadership of a
> party that even many of its own members have started to say no longer
> reflect their own views. The is also still racism in the US, and a

	I agree. My point was that very likely that's how things have been for 
most of the 20th century, if not the history of the US. Growing up, we 
didn't notice it or look for these aspects, and a lot of us have a 
romantic idea that things were better then (maybe not you).

	The US (and perhaps most major countries) have a long history of this 
kind of behavior. I guess it's just that when people use the word 
"conspiracy", everyone thinks he's a crackpot, so I unintentionally 
began to view anything that is demonstrably true as not being a 
conspiracy. ;-)

> buttons since before Obama was even elected. This is just an extension
> of the, "He is a Muslim", "His birth certificate is a fake.", "He is the

	I really enjoyed one of Jon Stewart's recent clips on this. It goes 
something like this (funnier if you see all the news clips he invokes)

"During his campaign, there were some concerns. Was he a Muslim? Was he 
... half a Muslim? Was he a reform Muslim? Or...was he Muslim?

But we soon learned that Obama was actually an angry militant black 
nationalist Christian (show Rev Wright clips).

Appeased, America voted him into office."

> Uh.. Taken in isolation yes. But this isn't in isolation, this is a
> trend, one that most people outside the US see very clearly, and which
> we don't, for much the same reason that a lobster doesn't realize its
> being boiled to death, if you start out with room temperature water in
> the pot, and just slowly heat it. There are people conspiring, these
> people *are* stupid enough to hire the US equivalent of Al Queda to
> shoot at people in Muslim countries, because sending more real troops is
> making people unhappy, and the fact that its a dozen different groups,
> of which only 1-2 know what they are buying, while the rest are just
> looking at the books dust jacket, doesn't change the fact that they are
> all buying the same monotheist, white, 'but not like them old Klan
> people', dominionist, theocratic, 'Democracy only works when we win,
> otherwise its corrupted', library. One book, for every flavor of, "Well,
> those other people are nuts, but we only believe what is in the blue
> book, not the red, purple, green, orange, and silver ones, which are
> published by the same madmen."

	Yes, but how is all this different from the actions in Latin America in 
the 80's? Or the stuff in Vietnam? Or the blacklisting of people with 
communist sympathies (nothing has come close to that yet - not even any 
anti-Muslim or anti-terrorist rhetoric). Or internment of the Japanese.

	Sure - they're different in minor ways. But they're all the "same 
difference".

> Even Bush didn't get this kind of crazy directed at him, or for him.
> McCarthy though.. That has a very similar feel to the current trend from
> the right, and, guess what? That was a conspiracy. You honestly think
> there isn't one this time, given all the BS, and the number of people
> *caught* inciting false information at the town halls, who turn out to
> either *be* politicians, or people that work for a) insurance companies,
> or b) the Republican party?

	Well, yes. That's my point. This isn't something special. It's been 
done before and will continually be done. Democracy is not much of an 
antidote.

	I think there are *much* more of these kinds of things going on. It's 
just that some of them seem big enough to fall under our radar (health 
issue, Prince, etc). I know this sounds cynical, but this is mostly just 
business as usual.


-- 
I'm addicted to placebos. I'd give them up, but it wouldn't make any 
difference. - Steven Wright

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