Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> """
> Let me repeat: There's no such a thing as a "universal moral code".
> """

> I think that right there distinguishes you from the Christians at whom this 
> video is aimed. You don't think Jesus' message is universal? You don't think 
> the ten commandments apply to everyone? OK, then most folks who agree with 
> that don't have a problem with your beliefs.

  What I'm talking about is that whenever atheists attack the bible, they
seem to assume there exists an universal moral code accepted by the
majority, and then they proceed to show how the bible breaks this universal
moral code.

  That's a shaky premise because there is no such a thing as a universal
moral code accepted by the majority.

  For example, some people think that abortion is genocide, while other
people think it's acceptable. Whose moral code is the correct one here?
Whichever you choose, are you going to tell the others that their moral
code is wrong?

  What about age of consent? Canada had until recently an age of consent
of 14. There are some countries which go as low as 12. On the other extreme,
there are some countries where it's 21. If one of the latter countries comes
and tells you that your country is depraved because they allow sex with
minors, are you going to tell them that their moral code is wrong? Why is
your moral code right?

  Americans who advocate the death penalty have their own moral code about
that subject. Is their moral code wrong? Why?

  There is no such thing as a "universal moral code". You can't argue that
something in the bible is universally "wrong" because there is no such
universal measure of what is right or wrong.

> """
> While some christians believe that, that doesn't automatically mean that 
> christianity, as a religion, teaches that, or that (assuming God indeed 
> exists) it's true.
> """

> And yet, that's exactly what Jesus tells people in the Bible, and that's the 
> excuse some crazy people use for killing their children.

  Jesus also tells people that their prayers don't get answered because
they don't have faith. The message seems clear to me: God does not answer
all prayers.

> """
> In internet parlance this is called trolling.
> """
> That's pretty insightful.

  Well, they clearly don't want to discuss, they clearly don't want to
listen nor hear any answers. Their attitude is "whatever you say, you are
just rationalizing". In other words, they are simply and purely being
provocative.

  In other words, they are trolling.

> The Bible has God promoting genocide, slavery, mass slaughter of 
> infants, rape, etc.

  That's a pure straw man.

  If a history book tells us that the president of the US ordered a nuclear
bomb to be dropped in Japan, does that imply that this history book is
promoting genocide? Of course not. It's simply stating what happened. It's
not promoting anything.

  If the bible says that God told some people to get rid of some nation,
is it promoting genocide? No, it's only stating that God told those people
to get rid of that nation. It's not giving permission for the readers to
go and murder someone. You might completely disagree with the *reasons*
stated in that passage why God gave this order, but that's not related to
whether the passage *promotes* doing it again and again.

  Nobody has the right to say "hey, this passage tells about killing
people, thus I can go there and kill those people" because that's not
what the passage is telling. It's not giving permission to anybody to
do any such thing.

  Of course some people will interpret such passages as they please, but
the bible is not the only text being abused like that, nor does being abused
tell anything about the veracity of the text.

  You can ask "but *why* did God order killing those people?" That's a
different, theologically interesting question. You can disagree with any
answers if you want, but it still doesn't say anything about the existence
of God or the veracity of the text.

> Why is that good? Is it good because God does it? If 
> not, isn't God doing bad? Or are you in agreement that slavery and genocide 
> *can* be good?

> That last seems to be what you're arguing with your ice cream analogy.

  You are now misinterpreting *my* writing. I didn't say that it's good.
I said that perhaps it's that we don't understand now what's going on
because we don't have all the info nor the necessary intellect and
experience. Just like the child may be unable to understand why he is
being denied things.

> > My point is that the *way* they are saying it is wrong because
> > they present a bunch of fallacious distorted arguments and outright straw
> > men, and then present questions and conclusions based directly on them.

> I think it's more like they're summarizing a whole bunch of well-known and 
> extended arguments and presenting them as a monologue, so it comes across as 
> a straw-man argument.

  Those well-known arguments have their answers, which atheists simply refuse
to listen to, or consider in any way acceptable. They just dismiss anything
as "rationalizations", whatever it may be.

  Some of the questions are truely complex and difficult. However, most of
the questions are trivial and have completely simple answers to them.
However, a bit like conspiracy theorists, they refuse to let go even of
the most ridiculous questions. Maybe the reasons are the same as with the
conspiracy theorists (ie. shotgun argumentation).

  (Often they also choose the most ridiculous and misguided answers out
there, just to make fun of them and ridicule them. That is, to make straw
men out of them.)

> >   Some christians understand that the bible uses a lot of metaphors and
> > similes, but they believe that the *message* these metaphors and similes
> > are expressing is true.

> But then they argue over which are literal, which are metaphors, and what 
> those metaphors mean. And then they punish you for disagreeing with their 
> evaluation.

  Still doesn't say anything about the existence of God (which is the core
point of the video).

> > Of course you have to understand that it *is* a
> > metaphor, and what it is trying to say. (Naturally different people may
> > have different interpretations, which is why we have a myriad of different
> > churches, branches, sects and whatnot.)

> A myriad of different churches, branches, sects, explosions of airplanes, 
> murders of abortion doctors, and beheadings of apostates.

  Still not the point of the video.

> Then you're not the type of person this video is addressed to. :-)

  Its straw men about what the bible is saying just bother me a lot.
That's why I wrote them that open letter. (And in fact, I got a polite
response from the website admin.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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