On 27-1-2011 0:45, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> On 26-1-2011 17:57, Darren New wrote:
>>> andrel wrote:
>>>> I am not sure I agree with you on this one. On most computers there is
>>>> one way I normally turn it 'off'. That is the one that should be
>>>> easily accessible, both as an icon and as button. For the special
>>>> cases I'd be happy with a big GUI.
>>>
>>> And Windows has that. Joel is bitching that it duplicates what's on the
>>> menu. He even talks about it having multiple icons in addition to the
>>> menu and how stupid that is.
>>>
>>>> One that asks If I want power down completely or keep everything in
>>>> RAM so I can reboot fast. I mean explain what the various option mean
>>>> other than just the sleep/hibernate/whatever labels for the options
>>>> that I normally don't use. And on the bottom line apply/cancel/use
>>>> this in the future. That should also solve the problem of accidentally
>>>> selecting the wrong option and going through a five minute
>>>> hibernate/reboot cycle to select the right one.
>>>
>>> That's precisely what Windows does.
>>
>> On mine it doesn't. (I have a XP64 machine).
>
> Well, XP isn't what Joel was talking about. But XP has a shutdown and a
> hibernate and a sleep (the hibernate being shift-sleep, which is
> admittedly a bit hidden), so I'm not sure what you are saying you're
> missing.

I am not arguing that I am missing something, I just said that it does 
not look like I would have implemented it.

>> To be clear what I would has preferred for myself and the poor souls
>> that I have to explain what is there now is:
>> One icon (ok perhaps two with one the equivalent of lock, windows-L)
>> that I can press when I leave the machine. Right clicking brings up a
>> GUI that let's me configure this and the physical power button. With
>> explained options. Default should be that both act the same, but for
>> knowledgeble people you might override that. I don't want a pull down
>> for selection. And I definitely don't want options labelled
>> sleep/suspend/hibernate.
>
> You're arguing just like Joel: "I don't understand this, and I don't use
> it, so it shouldn't be an option for anyone."

Nope, I said I understand why these options are needed, but they should 
not be visible when inappropriate.

> Vista has two icons and a menu:
>
> Icon - I'm leaving the computer for a long time. Sleep, hibernate, shut
> down, install updates and shut down, whatever is appropriate.

With at least in XP not a logical interface to change that. Right 
clicking the buttin brings up a menu, with one item: properties.
Of the taskbar, not the button. ??


> Icon - I'm walking away but I'll still work, so lock the computer screen.
>
> Menu - One option for each thing I might want to do.

That is the one that should not be visible or at least not in this format.

> Joel is arguing this could be turned into one button. I disagree.

me to.

>> I think that indeed some configuration is possible in the
>> configuration panels (I vaguely remember doing doing just that on my
>> laptop), but a quick glance there did not ring a bell.
>
> I don't know about XP any more, but "power" is where you look.

Indeed it is. In Dutch 'Energiebeheer', what the machine should do when 
you don't use it to save energy. Definitely the place you'll look for if 
you want to change the behaviour of a button.

>
>>> I don't think the interface is stupid at all. Certainly I don't think
>>> there's any option there you can simply remove, except maybe "lock" vs
>>> "switch user", altho I can see someone in a shared-computer environment
>>> distinguishing those two: "lock" being "I'm in the can",
>>
>> What can would that be?
>
> Slang for toilet.

Thanks, didn't know that.

>>> with "switch
>>> user" being "I'm at lunch." (For mac users, the difference between
>>> "lock" and "switch user" is whether you get back to the "login name"
>>> prompt or the "password" prompt, either of which can trivially take you
>>> to the other.)
>>
>> I hope it is the other way around (or a Chiasmus) . Or I would be
>> confused again.
>
> Obviously. :-)
>
>> I think he is mainly complaining that there is too much choice visible
>> for the average use. It is OK for those that understand the differences.
>
> The average user is supposed to push the power icon, or close the laptop
> lid, or hit the power button. I mean, there's a *button* on the machine
> marked "turn off". How much easier can you make it? Why are people
> complaining that there are options available for people who actually
> know how to work their computer? Do you think Joel would have stopped
> complaining if there was a checkbox somewhere in the control panel that
> says "let me pick how the heck I turn off the computer, already!?"?
>
>> 'Even' I am always confused between a couple, having to handle
>> inconsistent translations on different machine does not make it easier.
>
> Then just ... use the icons with the pretty pictures on them. Green,
> Yellow, Red? Those are pretty universal, aren't they? But having those
> three choices seems like they're still too confusing.
>
> I hate to say it, but cars have both ignition keys, door locks, *and*
> brake pedals (heck, *two* brake pedals!). I haven't heard anyone
> complaining about that.

Why would they? Different physical objects with a clear interface.

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