On 13-8-2010 1:04, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> Let's keep this in mind and see what happens if we *force* a linear
>> scale. E.g. assume that there are only a finite number of cars and that
>> the government has decided that only the best drivers get a licence.
> 
> Alright, this will be interesting.
> 
>> First we have to create a committee that can judge drivers capacity.
> 
> Okay
> 
>> For this a natural first group is that group that knows about cars e.g.
>> because they own a couple and repair them themselves. This is based on
>> the logical assumption that people who know how cars work also know how
>> to drive them well. Presumably they will come up with a test like how
>> fast drivers can negotiate an obstacle course without damage, to test
>> the ability of the drivers. That would indeed create an objective linear
>> scale.
> 
> Only, that's not a logical assumption. The people I know who own a
> couple cars and repair them drive like maniacs and admit it.

There are also many of them that think they are actually better drivers 
because they have more experience. Anyway I am just setting thing up for 
the last line. Any objection you raise against this part is most 
probably going to support the conclusion.

>> So we have as our main ingredients a complex multidimensional concept, a
>> need to make it objective and one dimensional, and a group of
>> knowledgeable men and what comes out is a very reasonable measure that
>> somehow and unplanned is not going to be gender-insensitive. And as long
>> as new members of this committee are recruited from the 'best' drivers,
>> it will stay that way.
> 
> There is the undefined jump from 'statistically safe driving habits'
> that, if everyone followed, would reduce total accidents to the 'locally
> safe driving habits' that may cause more accidents, on the whole, but
> are safer in certain circumstances where other drivers are making random
> decisions. 'Best' drivers, those who can put a car through it's paces on
> a closed course, are not by default the 'best' driver on a crowded
> street. Besides, these already is a committee that decides best driving
> practices and tests people on it. Around my part's the the Department of
> Motor Vehicles, and a few other federal agencies.
> 
> How does your test by committee become gender biased? Simply because
> there are more male race-car drivers, or what ever other pool you pick
> the judges from? I do not see the connection there.

The gender bias comes for a large part because the drivers will be 
tested in isolation. The concept that you should eliminate as much 
outside variables as possible is a valid one in experimental science, 
but not in this case and not in *judging* science.

>> This is of course an imaginary scenario and the fact that so many women
>> are going to fail the test is a dead give away that something is wrong.
> 
> The women fail the test because you imply a gender bias is somehow
> unplanned, but still present in the test. Why would a government
> committee, that picks the best drivers to devise the test, settle for a
> unplanned for bias? And what is the bias, anyways?
> 
> Now, if you said the government picked a group consisting of civil
> engineers, a few material science folks, some chauvinistic gear heads
> who race in demolition derbies on the weekend, and a mathematician, then
> I would believe the proposal you set out.
> 
>> You might even argue that no government is going to do something so
>> simplistic for such a complex problem. On the other hand many people
>> apparently fail to see the fact that driving ability is a
>> multidimensional problem to begin with. If you don't, it may seem
>> logical that it is a fair and adequate test. There is an even better
>> argument that this kind of fallacy is common: it works this way in science
> 
> Some governments already do have a single dimension score for driving;
> around here you have to pass a test with a certain score. Too low of a
> score, and no license.

We have that for the theoretical part, which you have to pass and on 
average about 50% fail. Not me, I passed in one attempt twice*. Skills 
needed to pass that test are not necessarily the ones that you need in 
driving. They are e.g. multiple choice under pressure, I think that is a 
typical environment that males perform better in. I don't know the 
statistics for this exam. A quick google search does not give any 
answers. OTOH I assume that relatively more women might pass the 
practical part. Also no information available.

*) I had to redo because I failed my practical exam for having a driving 
style that the examinators did not like. Theory is only valid for one year.

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