On 30-1-2010 0:48, Warp wrote:
> andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
>>>   Education can have some effect on IQ tests (because education can eg.
>>> train a person to think geometrically), but AFAIK in the US and especially
>>> Europe all people have had the exact same education for quite many decades.
> 
>> No they haven't. May I remind you of the private school debate here some 
>> time ago. Remember who started that thread?
> 
>   Are you saying that in the US all firemen studied in private schools and
> that's why they got the job?

Is this your famous sense of humour again?

>   Besides, at least here what is taught at schools is dictated by law.
> You *can't* have a school which skips teaching something, be it private
> or not. I don't know how it is in the US.

I don't know about finland, but here we have "good" and "bad" schools 
eventhough they have the same requirement. Apart from the fact that some 
are better funded and can therefore provide better education, there is 
also the fact that when a school has a lot of people from less well off 
background it is much harder to teach there. You loose much more time in 
getting everybody's attention.

>>>   If some group of people doesn't *want* to get educated, that's a different
>>> problem. It's *their* problem, not the problem in IQ or aptitude tests.
> 
>> I can't see where this one comes from.
> 
>   It has been suggested that black people score more poorly in the fireman
> aptitude test because of a poorer education. And why would black people
> have a poorer education in the US? Is it because black people are not
> taught the same things as white people?

That was answered many times before. If you still don't get it, I might 
reiterate below.

>> Are you aware that this could be interpreted as a racist remark?
> 
>   Of course anything that is not 100% politically correct can be
> interpreted as "a racist remark". So?

It is not about political correctness. That might have been a valid 
argument if your remark was relevant, now you are simply broadening the 
discussion to include more racial prejudice.

>> I am sure you don't mean to, but 
>> suddenly starting to talk about "people that don't *want* to get 
>> educated" in a discussion on how race influences test results is not a 
>> smart move IMHO.
> 
>   Really? And what would be the alternative explanation for the claimed
> poorer education? I can think of three possible explanations:
> 
> 1) Black people in the US are not taught at school to the same extent as
>    white people. 

Correct, indeed probably the main reason.

> I have hard time believing this to be the case, especially
>    since, AFAIK, most black people go to the exact same schools as white
>    people do.

That is not true unfortunately. Many areas are either predominantly 
white or predominantly black or predominantly hispanic etc. Hence they 
don't go the the same schools. Primary school is always in the 
neighbourhood. If you don't get a good start you chances of making up 
are slim. Education is a non-linear process.


> 2) For whatever reason (maybe culture?) the average black person is not
>    interested in educating himself.

partly true

> 3) Black people are unable to learn as efficiently as white people.

They are for reasons outside of them not for genetic.

>   #1 doesn't work, unless you can show me some actual proof that black people
> are indeed being discriminated at schools in the US and not being educated.

See my last remark below and all the other explanations in my and other 
peoples posts on this subject.

>   #3 would be the racist point of view, by definition (ie. there's something
> about being black that makes the person dumb).

Ah, so you meant genetic.

>   The only non-racist rational alternative is #2.

That is what you think. In fact it is not non-racial (because there is a 
big correlation between race and social environment. At least in the 
US). Also it is not the main explanation. #1 is.

>   Making generalizations about a *culture* is not racism. Racism is an
> ideology based on the notion that some races of people are genetically
> superior to others.
> 
>> I know you find that hard. You have said similar things many times. Yet, 

>> Tatsachen" you might get what I meant
> 
>   Actually I have no idea what that means. Is it German? (Not that this
> invalidates your point.)

Yes it is German. It refers to the story that Hegel had a theory on 
something and someone pointed out that it was at odds with the facts. At 

Tatsachen". Which translates roughly as "so much worse for the facts".
To get that you need to know enough German to recognize the story and 
you need to have been in an environment where someone was educated 
enough in German philosophy that he or she was able and willing to tell 
that story to you. In short you need to be white. A black guy with a PhD 
in biomedical engineering is less likely to know this then me. Not 
because of race, but because he did not live in the same environment as 
I did.

>>> especially if both have gone to the same schools.
> 
>> well, they didn't (on average), that is precisely the point.
> 
>   You mean that blacks are not taught the same things in the US as whites?
> 
Yes, sigh. They don't go to the same schools. They grow up in different 
neighbourhoods. Being born in a black neighbourhood will make sure that 
you don't get the same amount of attention from the teachers, that your 
fellow schoolkids will make it hard to study, that you watch different 
programs on TV, that you will have a different pattern in spending your 
free time, etc. etc.

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