On 4-8-2009 20:56, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> On 4-8-2009 1:46, Darren New wrote:
>>> andrel wrote:
>>>> What I said (and I think Jim is along the same line) is not that 
>>>> knowledge is faith but that those that believe *know* that they are 
>>>> right.
>>>
>>> Right. Except by making it mean "I'm really *really* faithful", 
>>> you've eliminated the usefulness of the word.
>>
>> Again, that is not what I did.
> 
> "Those that believe *know* they are right" is incorrect. "Those that 
> believe think they *know* they are right" is correct.

Only from the perspective of an outsider. Knowledge is not objective, I 
understand why you would like it to be so, but alas...

> 
>> The problem with this statement is in 'without justification'. That 
>> unfortunately is not an objective term and that is where the problem is.
> 
> It depends on how good your evidence is, of course. If you believe you 
> were kidnapped by aliens while your entire family watched you sleeping 
> in front of the fireplace, then you're without justification for your 
> belief.

Which would not stop some people from knowing they had been abducted, 
even if you would insist they mere believe it.

> If you think you know that George Washington was the first president of 
> the USA, you're pretty justified in believing that.

There was a trick question about that on QI some tie ago, I forgot the 
point, however :(

> As I said, there are grey zones in the middle, of course, where one 
> might not know if there was sufficient justification.

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