Warp wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> QM also 
>> says you can't have two fermions in the same quantum state in the same 
>> place.
> 
>   At least not in normal, almost-cartesian space, with extremely weak
> gravity.
> 
>   How about inside space which is so curved that it forms an event
> horizon because of a practically infinite gravity?-)

AFIAK, gravity's effect is so weak in QED at least that nobody knows how it 
affects things.

Note that I'm not saying "you can't have two fermions in the same state." 
I'm saying that's what QM says. And since it conflicts with GR's 
predictions, one of the other needs to be adjusted, unless you can prove 
that you can't prove either one is right.

Sure, it's possible that QM breaks down in extremes of GR, just like it's 
possible GR breaks down at extremes of QM.  I'm not saying one is right or 
the other. I'm saying it's not just "philosophical objections" to 
singularities, but actual mathematics that matches experimental measurements 
to 15 decimal places.

(I think gravity is something like 40 decimal places out, tho, so it's 
certainly possible QM isn't taking account of it properly.)

>   Under such pressures matter degenerates. Do fermions even stay as
> fermions, or do they degenerate to something more elemental? Something
> which might not be bound to QM laws?

It's entirely possible that's what happens.

>   Gravity is in effect also at subatomic levels, even though it's often
> ignored because it's so weak in normal circumstances.

Yep. And QM is in effect at levels the size of a star, similarly. :-)

>>> There's no known way for matter/energy to stop going towards this center. 
> 
>> You wouldn't think a single electron could be larger than a house, either, 
>> but they've done that in a laboratory.
> 
>   "You wouldn't think" is different from "there's no known way". The
> former is something related to my intuition. The latter is related to
> current scientifical global knowledge.

Sure. I was simply addressing your "philosophical objection" bit. :)

And there *is* a known way for it to stop going towards the center: QM.

If either of us knew whether GR or QM was more right in this situation, we'd 
already been in Stockholm picking up our prize. :-)

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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