Warp wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> Warp wrote:
>>> scott <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote:
>>>> We all still are just chemical reactions!
>>>   That's like saying that literature is just paper and ink.
> 
>> Pretty much.
> 
>> That's the thing most people don't get, tho.  The information content is 
>> in the *arrangement*, not the *components*. People say things like 
>> "there is no soul, because a dead person and a live person have all the 
>> same chemicals."  Even tho there's nothing *physical* there more than 
>> the chemicals, their arrangement is what's important.
> 
>   Information (most prominently written information) is still something
> which puzzles me at a conceptual, philosophical or whatever level I can't
> really determine.
> 
>   Paper and ink is just that, paper and ink. There's nothing else there
> than paper and ink. Yet there can be: If there is, for example, some
> written text, there is *something* else than just paper and ink there.
> It's what is commonly called "information". I simply can't get a mental
> grasp of what exactly that is, at the lowest conceptual level possible.
> It's something that is and is not there, at the same time. It transfers
> something from person to person, something which isn't physical. If it
> isn't physical, how can it "exist" at all?

It is physical, in a sense. In every person that information has made a 
physical change in the person, often to the effect that that person can 
reproduce the information. In exceptional cases it may even influence 
future behaviour. (Okay, that begs the question whether behaviour is 
physical). It differs from a 'normal' physical object in that it does 
not have a specific position in space and that it will differ from 
person to person.

> 
>   When I think about written information like that, it starts sounding
> really, really whacky.
> 

I don't think so. When you see a text in korean or thai, there is no way 
for you to decode the information. It could have a very high information 
content by being totally random or it could be a great work of 
literature. That is different if the information is in a familiar 
alphabet and a familiar language. Take the statement 'We all still are 
just chemical reactions!'. As soon as you saw that, you recognized it as 
english so your mind flips from the finnish into the english state. That 
it a non localized (and ununderstood) physical change. Then your brain 
starts processing the 'We'. First the retina sees a set of lines and 
curves by adjusting the voltages over several cells. Then the brain 
decodes the 'W' and the 'e' and various voltages of cells in the cortex 
are adjusted. That goes to the next level where they are combined and 
you become aware that a group is meant that includes at least the writer 
and possibly yourself. Only after decoding the whole sentence you know 
that with 'We' mankind is meant, possibly even the entire fauna (plus 
flora). This is followed by a response of disapproval, resulting in the 
release of stress hormones. That in turn is then followed by the 
realisation that it is also partly true, that you know the writer and 
that actually you like him, and the levels of various hormones are 
readjusted. Then there is some time for reflection resulting again in 
the adjustment of several voltages. After that some cells are physically 
changed to record that you have seen this message, where and what it did 
to you. So a lot of physical things going on. The only whacky thing is 
that you can not point your finger to it. Then again that is not much 
different from information in computers. Take that statement again. You 
see it on your screen, but do you know exactly which bits in main memory 
are involved? can you without opening your computer tell where these 
are? and after opening?

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