On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 23:37:59 -0500, Sabrina Kilian wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:32:35 -0500, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
>> 
>>> The problem that I saw, first hand in the USA high school system, is
>>> that there is often no hope. I don't work in a school, so I can't
>>> observe how it's changed over time. But I did ask some others people
>>> for their memories of school. There have always been cliques, but it
>>> seems that kids have been getting more and more insular and stopped
>>> talking to people not in their group. Whether the 5 year olds playing
>>> team sports, or parents arranging strict play dates is to blame for
>>> this is another discussion.
>>>
>>> So kids grow up with much less of a safety net, and very few people to
>>> talk to when things go wrong. Take a common occurrence, a fight within
>>> one of these small groups of kids. One kid singled out, where do they
>>> go and who can they turn to?
>> 
>> Well, from my own experience (I was a loner/nerd/geek all through
>> school
> 
> Was that actually a clique then? =)

Not so much, no - it was a label. :-)

>> through the 70s and 80s), school counseling can help.  When I was in
>> 3rd or 4th grade, I used to meet with a school counselor once or twice
>> a week.  We'd talk, play cards, whatever - it was a chance at
>> interaction that I wasn't getting from my peers.
>> 
> Poor rural school I went to had guidance counselors. While they were
> great at helping students find the right colleges to apply to, their
> advice over disputes was a little lacking. I think some advice I heard
> was to 'stick up for yourself' as a deterrent to bullying. While not the
> best way to stick up for themselves, violence does fit against that
> simple instruction.

Well, it can, but it doesn't always.  I also had guidance counselors in 
high school, but I rarely went to see them.  In fact, just for college 
entrance stuff, now I think about it.

>> Now while I am arguing one on one side that school shootings/violence
>> isn't anything new, the frequency can be somewhat alarming - but things
>> like kids getting together and arranging to meet out in the playground
>> after school for a fistfight is something I remember from my early
>> elementary school days in the late 70's.
>> 
> So the violence has been there for at least 30 years. That's not what's
> changed.

Yes, agreed.

>>> IMO, the problem isn't the guns or these kids either killing
>>> themselves or killing others before they kill them self. It's that
>>> these situations occur in the first place.
>> 
>> Well, part of the problem is that they've managed to get their hands on
>> the weapons - and that's down to poor parental supervision in many
>> cases of modern school violence.  That certainly can be demonstrated to
>> be the case in the Columbine event - the parents appeared to be totally
>> clueless that their kids were out in the garage making pipe bombs.
>> 
> I don't know, I've heard that back in the 50's and 60's schools actually
> had hunting clubs, and boys keeping their rifle in the locker wasn't
> that uncommon.

True, hadn't thought of that.  But I don't think the parents were unaware 
of that, either.  It seems that many parents (certainly not all) treat 
their kids as a fashion accessory - they don't know how to parent, so 
they let others raise their kids for them, or were basically 
disinterested in being involved in their kids lives.

> I'd say part of the problem is a lack of respect, for each other and
> life in general.

Agreed.  And learning that respect is something that happens at home as 
well as in school settings.

>> Well, my own experience with the school counselor back in elementary
>> school was that the school provided him for that service.  Maybe
>> schools don't do that any more, though - I don't know.
>> 
> My school might have offered one, but rumors fly in a small area. 4th
> graders and cousins who hear through the grape vine can both be very
> cruel.

It doesn't have to be a small area.  My first elementary school had 
something like 1500 students in it in total; kids can be cruel.  It 
doesn't take a small area or a large area.

But kids don't seem to learn coping skills that help them deal with 
problems in a sane way.  Today they seem to be generally coddled by the 
system and told "it's OK" - and at the same time, they're passed through 
grades when they really shouldn't be because we don't want to "hurt their 
self-esteem".  Then when a really crushing event happens in their life, 
they're ill-prepared to cope with it and they snap.

A kid who has made his way through the public education system and been 
told all along that failure is OK getting into the workforce, where he 
screws up and then gets fired for incompetence is a great way to get an 
office building shot up.

>>> Or worse, is convinced that anyone who gets counseling is already too
>>> far gone to be helped.
>> 
>> I'm sure that happens too.
>> 
> 
> One day visiting a counselor will be like seeing a doctor for an ear
> infection. Till then, ask a kid, grade school to college age, whether
> they would prefer to be healthy or to maintain their image.

Well, in my case there wasn't an image to protect, because I was rejected 
by most of the kids in school anyways, except for a very small group who 
basically tolerated me, and one or two friends.

There's a reason I will never go to any reunions (I went to my 5-year, 
what a waste that was).  Those people made my life growing up miserable.

Jim

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