Stephen wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:32:35 -0500, Sabrina Kilian <"ykgp at vtSPAM.edu"> wrote:
> 
>> Stephen wrote:
>>> On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 11:51:11 -0500, Sabrina Kilian <"ykgp at vtSPAM.edu"> wrote:
>>>
>>> [Snip for brevity]
>>>
>>> To reply to your last point (mine) first. I think that you are right, gun laws
>>> won't help. It is too late for you, (not personally) there are too many guns in
>>> circulation and the belief that you need a firearm to defend yourself too
>>> ingrained. To quote a long dead poet who died in a fight. Why, this is Hell nor
>>> am I out of it.
>> I disagree with the observations, but not the quote.
>>
> I don't know if that is an observation I thought that it was a belief. But
> please correct me if you see things differently. You live there whilst I am only
> an onlooker. And I don't like the conclusions that I have come to and would like
> to be wrong
> 

Hmm, I thought the observation was that it is too late. Or the
observation of the facts that lead to you having that belief.

>> The problem that I saw, first hand in the USA high school system, is
>> that there is often no hope. I don't work in a school, so I can't
>> observe how it's changed over time. But I did ask some others people for
>> their memories of school. There have always been cliques, but it seems
>> that kids have been getting more and more insular and stopped talking to
>> people not in their group. Whether the 5 year olds playing team sports,
>> or parents arranging strict play dates is to blame for this is another
>> discussion.
>>
> I don't have children myself so no personal experience but the trend in the UK
> seems to be going the same way.
> 

No kids here either, I'm going by what I remember, what I saw when my
sister was in school, and what I've seen since then from cousins and such.

>> So kids grow up with much less of a safety net, and very few people to
>> talk to when things go wrong. Take a common occurrence, a fight within
>> one of these small groups of kids. One kid singled out, where do they go
>> and who can they turn to?
>>
>> IMO, the problem isn't the guns or these kids either killing themselves
>> or killing others before they kill them self. It's that these situations
>> occur in the first place.
>>
> Some people say that modern society is changing too fast for us to adapt to it
> safely. I think that this has a kernel of truth. The demise of the nuclear
> family plays a part.
> 

Is that the demise of the family with regard to single parents and
non-traditional families, or the other movement to return to large
extended families?

>>> As for depression and drugs; it would probably be better (IMO) if drugs were
>>> used as a last resort if at all. But then you would have to put more effort into
>>> helping people which would not be as profitable to the established money makers.
>> You haven't seen what counselors charge by the hour, have you? The drugs
>> are common because they are the cheap answer, cheap enough to be
>> available to the people who really should be getting counseling but
>> can't afford it.
> 
> No I've got no idea at all. But surely it is cheaper for society to pay for it
> than pay for the outcome. (Yes I am a socialist). Having said that I also
> question the beneficial effect of counselling. In fact I think that in a lot of
> cases it makes things worse. I makes people dwell on things too much. I also
> think that "closure" is over rated as well. What is wrong with being sad and
> letting time cure your ails rather than forcing an end to your problems.
> 
100$ an hour seems to be the going rate here. Insurance companies can
dictate what they will pay, but make doctors charge the same thing to
everyone and therefor dictate what the uninsured pay too. Screwed up
system. 100$ a month for a one hour session, or the latest 45$ a month
pill, or an older pill at 8$ a month?

No argument from me on the first part. It would be a lot cheaper for
society. The second one, though . . .

I don't think counseling is about getting a person 'over' an event or an
issue. When you have a tough math problem, that you have no idea how to
solve, you don't 'get over it.' You study, learn what the notation
means, figure out how the problem is expressed, and then work through it
step by step. What do you do with a problem in life that you have no
frame of reference for how to solve?

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