somebody wrote:
> "andrel" <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
> news:47C### [at] hotmailcom...
>> somebody wrote:
> 
>>> Ethics is way overrated. Nobody would act ethically (not the least
> because
>>> there's no such thing as universal ethics) if it weren't enforced.
> 
>> If you think so, you have met only the wrong people. I know a lot of
>> people that act ethically because they want to behave like that.
> 
> Did you investigate why? 

I can only speak for myself ...

> Simply saying they want to behave that way doesn't
> explain why they want to behave that way, or why they are conditioned to
> behave that way.

... and in my case it is simply that I though long and hard about, tried 
to develop my own ethics from ground up and started to behave in 
accordance. The last bit surprised me, but that is what happened.

>> I also
>> know that us atheists and the christians, muslims, taoists, buddhists,
>> etc. have slighly different ethics, but that does not mean that we don't
>> agree on most things.
> 
> It's inevitable to agree on some things to be able to live together. There
> has been enough disagreement, however, to cause many conflicts and wars.
> 
>>> Being caught (whether by the fellow humans or the invisible all-seer
>>  > in the sky) is the only reason we act *ethically*.
> 
>> If you want to put it that way, you should add 'being caught by
>> oneself'.
> 
> No, it goes back to outside influences. 

That is the point I am making: it doesn't. I.e. for me it doesn't. And I 
recognize the symptoms in others. Although I cannot prove it I assume 
they have gone through the same process. Ethical behaviour has been 
internalized, as it should be IMHO. I know that quite often that fails, 
most often in males. One more reason to hand the countries and companies 
over to the women.

> There's nothing inherently ethical
> or unethical about, say, killing and eating pigs or dogs as opposed to
> killing and eating cattle and deer, and if born to isolation and brought up
> without outside conditioning, one would not necessarily prefer one or the
> other on ethical grounds. After tasting the meat, one can prefer cattle meat
> to dog meat, but that's not ethics but practicality.
> 
>> And even then, you miss an important aspect. Fear of getting
>> caught is only a phase of it, later it becomes second nature.
> 
> That I agree on. I did use the word "habitual" in that context.
> 
>> For me it
>> is out of the question to rob someone of even deliberately drive too
>> fast, I am simply incapable of doing so. I even feel stressed and
>> slightly physical unwell if my wife drives too fast or parks at a
>> prohibited spot.
> 
> Prime example of conditioning and fear (not about the increased risk, the
> increased risk between 55mph and 56mph is negligable, but fear from
> authority).

nope. And I should know it, it happens in my head.

>> That said, I know that I live in a country where I can
>> afford to live this way.
> 
>>> Of course getting caught death is
> 
> This should have read "... after death".
Ah, now it makes sense.
> 
> Anyway, the point is, for a rational person, there's nothing to be afraid of
> after death, so ethics becomes irrelevant. 

Only if you are complete selfish. Which indeed you may consider a 
rational choice, but so is solipsism and suicide for that matter.

> Those who worry about the
> environment 1000 years from now do so because they are afraid of the
> repercussions they will from their fellow men *now*.

Again, no, no, no. I *want* the earth to be inhabitable for humans for 
the next million years. And I want them to go out and marvel at what 
nature has to learn us.

> An example where mob
> mentality is at play - for none of the people alive will actually be able to
> feel the effects in such a long term, but irrational behaviour can be
> contagious and develop a momentum of its own (as demonstrated in many
> studies involving variants of prisoner's dilemma).

Again I disagree. Of course mob mentality plays a role, but only in the 
sense that big companies pay large sums to the media to spread the idea 
that the earth is there for us to ravish without any obligation to those 
that will come after us.
;) (sort of)

Post a reply to this message