Warp wrote:
> andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
>> Warp wrote:
>>> Tim Cook <z99### [at] bellsouthnet> wrote:
>>>> This is to say, they're specifically interested in stopping the next 
>>>> Nazi regime
>>>   By building up a similar regime of censorship, propaganda and limitation
>>> of basic human rights.
>> You are overreacting.
> 
>   I'm honestly hoping so. After all, I live here too.

As I said, such laws are in effect for years in the Netherlands and we 
were considered quite a tolerant country nevertheless.

> 
>> If this law could help in defusing the debate so that finally things can 
>> be done about the real problems of the immigrants and the people living 
>> near them I would be very happy.
> 
>   The problem I see is that currently the rational discussion about the
> problems of immigration are being overwhelmed by loud racist bigotry and
> people only see the latter, and while fighting against it, they are also
> going to kill the rational discussion with it. In other words, people who
> are *not* racist and who have rational concerns about immigration problems
> are going to be shut down by the same measures used to shut down the true
> racists.
> 
I think that is more or less what I said.

>   I hope I'm wrong in this.

The situation in the Netherlands is that there is no debate anymore, 
there is just Geert Wilders. The guy who wants a.o. to make the Koran 
illegal because it incites violence.* No serious, well thinking human 
wants to be associated with that sort of person. So there is nobody 
anymore that is able to say that there are problems with immigrants or 
with some muslims. End of debate.

>>>   If a country starts behaving in ways similar to the nazi party, it will
>>> quickly be shut down by surrounding countries. I don't believe there is
>>> any danger of this happening.
> 
>> Wishful thinking, they won't interfere unless they are at risk 
>> themselves. You could make a case that Russia is sliding towards a 
>> dictatorial regime. I haven't seen any surrounding country taking steps, 
>> but perhaps there is a new role for Finland here.
> 
>   I think trying to kill racism by creating totalitarian censorship laws
> is also wishful thinking. It's more like trying to sweep the problem under
> the carpet, out of sight (and probably unsuccessfully even at that).
> 
I already understood that you prefer to address this issue using big 
words like 'totalitarian censorship'. Repeating it again and again does 
not convince me that you are not overreacting. ;) More to the point, 
racism is not going to go away but how do you handle groups that shut 
themselves off from reality and continually pass the same (false) 
information among themselves. And that is not only neo-Nazi's but also 
anarchists, fundamentalist Muslims and not to forget the right wing 
Christians in the US, to name a few. Standing aside and repeating the 
mantra of freedom of speech will inevitably result in terrorist attacks. 
Prosecuting and marginalizing them will have the same effect. So in the 
end people just do what they hope will minimize the damage.


*Most recent action: the queen in her Christmas speech asked for less 
verbal attacks on groups because of faith, race or... He felt she meant 
specifically him (how is that for an ego) so he will be trying to pass a 
law to the effect that the queen a.o. won't be able to address the 
country anymore. Not a change, but at least he will get some much needed 
attention for the coming days. After that there will be another action 
to get the attention of the media for a few days and after that...

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