nemesis wrote:
> Sabrina Kilian <"ykgp at vtSPAM.edu"> wrote:
>> In other words, if God is omnipotent and omniscient, why does his
>> planning suck?
> 
> His planning doesn't suck.  How can you say that when you don't even know it?
> 

I can look at the world around me and see suffering. I can see people
who are suffering praying for some kind of help, of any kind at all. I
don't need to know what the actual plan is to know that it isn't working
all that well at this point in time. You can believe that this is
temporary and the plan gets better, I don't believe.

Tell me how, in any way shape or form, a 2 year old getting cancer and
dying painfully fits into any plan to make the rest of the world a
better place. Mesh that with the fact that if a person were to suggest
the exact same end result, kill a few 2 year olds and the world will be
better, they would be ridiculed, mocked, and quite possibly stoned in
the streets.

>> If Evil is outside of God's control, then God is not omnipotent. If he
>> simply does not stop evil, but allows it to happen when he could act to
>> stop it, then he is not Good. And if he can not interact with us to stop
>> it, then why get upset that some people choose not to believe in
>> something that can not even interact with this existence?
> 
> enough with Epicurus.  He didn't knew God's plans either.  He presumes life =
> good, death = bad; which is not necessarily right in all cases.  I'm not saying
> this as justification for genocides committed by men's hands, but applying it to
> tragedies out of men's control.  Also, it may take time,  but justice is
> eventually made.  Epicurus talked as if suffering was continuous on the same
> victims no matter what and the criminous was allowed a life of happiness
> thereafter.  Most criminous against humanity have had some terrible deaths or
> tragedies in their families or mental illness in the last days or whatever.
> Hitler suicided,  his partner Goebbels killed his 6 children and suicided,
> Saddam saw his 2 sons die and then was eventually executed.  God directly
> influences this world via men's actions too.
> 

Knew I was quoting that argument from someone, but I couldn't remember
Epicurus by name. Thanks for reminding me.

However, I was not making the same argument. I made no connection to
what good and evil are. There are some cases where death is good
compared to the alternatives. One person dying to save someone else,
while painful to have happen to someone you know, could be said to be
better then both of the people dying.

We have, supposedly, eaten from the tree of knowledge, we should know
what good and evil is. Why, then, is something that we could all agree
is evil allowed to happen at all?

Can God stop it if he wanted to?
Why doesn't he?
Why should I worship some one/thing that wouldn't stop these things from
happening?

> Besides, non-believers will say miracles such as healing due to prayer are
> actually a matter of chance, so I don't see the relevance of them trying to
> find proof of God's interactions in the world when every said interaction can
> be ultimately traced to quantum fluctuations, which IMO is precisely God's way
> of interacting with the physical world...
> 
> 

Show me an actual miracle. They were so common in the OT days, and Jesus
performed them on street corners. Why, all these years later, are we
asked to take it on faith that one book tells the truth and other books
tell lies?

And my reason for not believing in the healing power of prayer is that,
simply, it never worked from where I saw it. I haven't seen cancer
disappear from prayer alone. I never saw limbs grow back, scars
disappear, or painful injuries simple go away.

Even if God does just act through quantum fluctuations, why doesn't he
do something about the things that are going on. Why bother putting the
face of Jesus in a tree when he could put his face in Darfur after
suddenly providing some food for people there. We argue around in
circles about this for a long time. The problem that I see, is that
while I disagree with your belief and simply don't agree with it, the
few quirky statements offering to pray for the 'non-believers' shows
that you don't really respect those who don't share your belief.

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