Jim Henderson wrote:
> pointless and useless, so why *do* you bother reading it?

The problem is once started, there are a few people here who will just add 
incorrect facts to it as the last posts.  in the past this came back to bite 
us.  And of courses, i never intended to have such a long discussion.

> comments do is distract from the actual discussion, which while you may
> think is pointless, there are some people who are actually interested in
> the ideas.  Maybe they won't ever be implemented in POV-Ray - but what
> does that really matter? 

As this server is for discussion of POV-Ray, yes.  Probably this whole 
discussion should have moved to p.off-topic a long time ago..

> Quashing discussion just because you don't see the value, or because you
> believe there is no value does nothing to encourage people to think and
> consider that they might actually have something to contribute of value. 

There is a difference between various POV-Team members not seeing any value 
in it and repeating a discussion for the 11th time.

> You want people to contribute things that are of value, right?  Well, if I
> read this discussion and think "Man, there's no way that I might
> contribute something that ______ would consider valuable, so why should
> I even suggest my idea", and then the idea is lost.

This group would be the wrong place for such discussion!  There is a huge 
difference between making a suggestion and being told that it has been 
rejected and just letting it go, or to continue arguing that all the 
developers of POV-Ray are obviously so stupid or uninterested in the 
development of POV-Ray that they just don't want to implement it (which 
some, not you, have done).

> 1.  You don't seem to be able to ignore threads you see no value in, and

Actually, I already ignore 99%+ of the threads on this server.

> 2.  You seem to just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

Certainly not.  I have no need to argue with certain people because I know 
it is a waste of time.  However, I do have a problem when those people who 
make outright false or defamatory remarks about POV-Ray development or 
developers on this server.

> In fact, I found it somewhat amusing that in this thread you've gone on
> and on about the lack of portability, yet in another recent thread about
> launching POV-Ray in a cross-platform environment, you indicated that
> cross-platform support wasn't important to you personally. 

Apparently you are confusing me with someone else.

> say that I learned a lot not because Dan Farmer said to me "You're an
> idiot and don't know what you're talking about" but took the time to
> explain something to me that I didn't understand, even though it was
> probably the 300th time he had explained it to someone. 

Actually, back then there were far fewer people online and those who were 
online were almost all less "demanding" when it comes to what they expect 
from something they get for free.  Not to mention, a certain level of 
computer talent was needed to get online.  Today even for a free offer you 
get plenty of flames for truly random reasons or no reason at all from 
people who ten years ago could not have managed to get online even if they 
wanted to.

> And yes, those
> discussions were had a bit before you got your driver's license.

Which reminds me I should update my website, that picture is really old 
now... ;-)

> That's the nature of online support, my friend.  I've been doing online
> support for nearly 15 years now, and the nature of it is that you *will*
> have the same discussions over and over and over again, ad nauseum.  That
> is virtually *guaranteed*, and there is absolutely *nothing* you can do
> about it. 

Oh, hence I posted the link to an old discussion.  Interesting enough, 
absolutely nothing new came up in this one, but plenty was repeated from the 
last ones.  Obviously it is fine to discuss the same thing again and waste 
resources for that, but it is not necessary to read the old discussion. 
Personally I think such attitude is unacceptable.

> Yelling at people doesn't work.  Just let them bash it out in
> their own time - sometimes, people have to learn things for themselves,
> they have to make the mistakes that have already been made to have an
> epiphany.  Many people learn by *doing*, not by being told.  So let 'em.

A certain group of people her does not do that, unfortunately :-(

> Who knows, maybe the 15th time, someone will have an idea that nobody on
> the POV-Ray team has thought of.  I'm sure you'll be skeptical of that
> statement/idea, though.  You only want discussions that - how did you put
> it - "Contribute something of value".  But of course nobody but you knows
> what you consider valuable, so the only way to find it is to be subjected
> to your anger and frustration.  Quite frankly, that's a great way to drive
> users away from the POV-Ray project (again, BTDTGTTS).

As repeated numerous times now, and not only by me, there is exactly no 
interested in plug-ins, even if discussed a 20th time.  If that i the only 
suggestion people have that would be really sad.

> It's a shame that there are those who would rather not have open
> discussion about things relating to the software, regardless of the value
> they perceive in the discussions.

Again, you are completely missing the difference between repeating a 
discussion and discussing a new idea.  New ideas are really welcome!!!

Yet, that requires first getting an idea if something was not already 
suggested before.  Like in real-life, you would not walk into a meeting and 
repeat the ideas of last year.  All you would be told is to read memo xyz 
and if you would not do so and come again with the same idea the next week 
and the week after that, eventually you would have a hard time not being 
perceived as a total joke by your coworkers, friends or whoever you are 
meeting with.  Yet, for some strange reason a behavior that is considered 
totally inappropriate in real-life seems to be expected to be accepted by 
everybody when a small minority insists on it.

	Thorsten

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