In article <3d7414d6@news.povray.org> , Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg>  wrote:

>> It could mean anything.
>
>   No, it couldn't. It means "header level 1", or "top level header" (ie.
> it's not under any other higher-priority header).
>   It does not mean "paragraph", nor "footnote", nor "quote". It means "header"
> and nothing else.

You quoted me out of context (again).  Usually paragraphs outline an idea,
not sentences:  "It could mean anything.  When you print a HTML page on
paper, a new page could for example start with every h1 tag."

It is very clear what i mean with "anything" is layout.  I did not say
structure.  That would not make sense as my second sentence made very clear.
So please do not rip sentences of mine out of context and then attack what I
said.

>>  When you print a HTML page on paper, a new page
>> could for example start with every h1 tag.
>
>   This is a minor difference. Regardless of whether it starts in a new
> page or not, it should still be a *header*, not something else (eg.
> a footnote). You are affecting the layout by specifying that it's a header.
> If you had used another tag (eg. <p>), the layout would be completely
> different, and the meaning of the text inside the tags would be different.

That is exactly what I am saying!  The structure tag h1 can be rendered in
many different layouts.  But you want control over the layout and thus you
imply you want tonctrol over where to put it.  I am arguing for the reader
to decide which layout he/she prefers.  Not more, not less.

>   And what is so bad if the author would want you to see the header
> as "Helvetica bold 20 pixel height"? If the author thinks that that makes
> his work look better and nicer, then why not?

Well, it might be one of any of these, in no particular order (!!!):

- The user does not have the font Helvetica
- The user scren resolution may not be sufficient to clearly see a
  difference between bold and normal text
- The user might be on a too small screen where 20 pixel height is too much

>> Well, why do you want to disallow users to configure their display such that
>> <h1> is rendered in a three pixel size font?
>
>   I don't think CSS disallows users from doing that (at least not any more
> than plain HTML does).
>   You are still speaking about forcing, while that's not the issue at all.
> You can't force anything with CSS. The issue here is helping.

Yes, that is indeed your intention.  The problem is that you fail to help
because of the way HTML is meant to be (not depend ona s specific layout),
but once you have a specific layout you also make assumptions based on the
layout you set.  Things like assuming a specific minimum width:

Take your page for example here.  What is its minimum width?  It is given by
the table that contains the navigation (thus misusing a table for layout).
You assume everybody will have a screen at least big enough that there will
be enough space next to the navigation bar to display the content.  But what
happens if you i.e. view the page one a handheld computer with a small
screen?  The layout you gave failed, and certain elements of it like the
navigation bar cannot be correctled by the user without loosing the ability
to navigate on the page.  On the other hand, had your layout not depended on
the specificc layout elements you have and instead focused on structure
along, this problem would not exist.

As you see in the example I gave, you made an assumption.  You always have
to make an assumption when you specify layout.  But why should you make an
assumption if the user reading it _knows_ the layout he/she needs?  in this
simple example this might just be the browser on the handheld device having
a default samller font size for headers and text, less space between
paragraphs and such.  But if you specify the layout and design assuming your
page will be displayed this way, and only this way, the layout you provide
breaks!


    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

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