> >i thought they got rid of the off-topic group over a month ago!  is it
> >back?
> 
>   Yes. It was re-opened a few days ago. I didn't want to re-direct
> followups to my reply because I wasn't sure what you were asking. If you
> think your question is better suited in p.o-t, by all means re-post in
> that group and just let the folks who reply in p.general know that
> you'll continue over in p.o-t. See you over there <s>.

i see.  well, i was just hoping for a general discussion on books, not a
poll.  i'm interested in recommendations, insights gleaned from books,
things read that are applicable to pov, etc.  for example, i've recently
read two of bill flemings' books, and while i did already know some of
it, and found other parts to be slightly incorrect (like when he says
you can always see welds), there was still a lot of useful information. 
one thing in particular was his checklist for photorealism.  so far as
his art goes, i have seen better.  but many of his approaches to things
are really good.  the items he discusses aren't specific to any
particular 3d package, and although his tutorials use mesh modelers, i
find they aren't super difficult to adapt to spatch, moray, or even hand
coding.  i also like that he strongly advocates details in models,
rather than using image maps to add details.  he does like image maps,
but he thinks that a model should look good in monotone before you
surface it.  another book on my list of books to get is the '___: a
procedural approach' (i can't quite remember the full title).  it is
supposedly non-package specific as well and should be applicable to
pov.  i'm also wondering about the renderman books since one of our
povers has added its shading language to his own compile of pov.  there
are also books out there about lighting and staging (staging being the
placement of camera and objects in a scene).  at the very least, most 3d
hobbyists could benefit from books on staging.  too often, scenes look
dull and contrived.  a lot of povers have the desire, but neither an
artistic background, nor an inate understanding of scene construction. 
they can make models just fine, and some can even texture them fine,
whether procedurally or with image maps.  but putting things together in
a way that draws in the viewer simply escapes many pov artists. 
however, i don't really 'hear' much discussion in any of these groups on
scene construction or modeling technique.  mostly it seams discussions
are on how to make a macro do this or that, or why this thingy doesn't
do what was expected, etc.  a few artists (like gilles tran) have
websites that actually have 'the making of' an image.  these are quite
insightful and more of this kind of 'secret' sharing would benefit the
pov community at large.  too often, i think, we wonder and even ask
"how'd he do that" and get little or no response.  posting scene code
isn't always the best answer to that question.  to know someone's train
of thought or insights learned is far more valuable than scene code. 
likewise, discussion of such topics in the newsgoups would also be
great.  for example, some of h.e. day's blob spaceships are awesome!  it
would be great if he told us how he did it.  few of us have mastered
pov's blobs to such a high degree, and much trial and error could be
overstepped with just a little instruction.  perhaps i'm wrong and many
articles like these exist here.  in any case, i would suggest to all
readers that next time you have one of those lightbulbs go on in your
head, or you feel pride at completing a cool pic, share words with us as
well as the image.  maybe even write a short essay or something.  it
would add a lot more depth and value to an already great community
(these newsgroups).

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