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Thanks a lot Shay, for your detailed comments. I certainly can speak for
Stephen too.
On 20-5-2013 17:08, Shay wrote:
> rounds after that, but have not participated since. If it helps, here are the
> reasons why:
>
> my account was lost altogether) for the user name Shay. Yes, I can get a new
> account with another name, but I would prefer my old account associated with my
> would certainly have commented, if not entered a time or two, if my account had
> been accessible.
You confirm here what I was beginning to suspect. The "contact us"link
seems indeed dead. I tried it myself yesterday and to date, as one of
the team, I still have not received it.
This is becoming a serious worry. Colin (the technical owner of the
site) is not responding to our (Stephen, me) mails, and either the
mentioned link goes exclusively to him and he automatically drops it or
something else is happening.
BTW, after controlling,the password you used for your new membership
seems to be the same as for the username Shay. Could you please confirm
or infirm this?
>
> 2. Small audience. Producing something for a small audience of like-minded
> feedback.
With the policy of not using the book titles, or in a derived form, we
surely can do something about that ;-)
>
> media to look at. Consideration of any one item is almost unwarranted.
As far as p.b.i. is concerned, there still is a fair amount of active
commenting from the remaining community.
At the TC-RTC, commenting on uploaded images is very poor indeed and I
frankly do not know how to improve incentives to do this. I confess that
I do not comment enough myself in that respect...
>
> /how/ to finish an image. Many of the interminable WIPs I see are modeled with
> techniques that will grind progress to a near-halt long before an image can be
> completed.
Absolutely true. I guess technical preoccupations overrule the wish to
finish an image...
>
> 5. The quality on a lot of the images is terrible. This might be related to the
> slow death of the POV-Ray newsgroups, but things that used to be a matter of
> course (decent sky, metal textures, radiosity) are missing from many of the
> foremost, your image should convey that you give a shit.
Absolutely true. Again, I guess that technical preoccupations overrule.
While I recognize myself in point 4, I certainly do not where point 5 is
concerned :-) Over the years, I have acquired a huge collection of
pieces of code, tips, tricks and what not, which I constantly use in one
scene or another I am working on, and gleaned from the POV-Ray
newsgroups. I think this is an essential procedure for anyone here.
Maybe that is not done so much any more or maybe people are not really
interested any more in producing quality.
>
> ******** Suggestions:
>
The p.o-t is a good suggestion indeed.
>
> 2. Give more constructive feedback to all of the entries. Encourage people to
Indeed. Again I am thinking about making commenting an obligation when
voting... However, that would also need some "action" from Colin :-(
>
> 3. Encourage everyone to back off the bad copies of professional work and
> explore still life, abstract, surrealism, architecture and other genres more
Not sure I follow you here. What are the bad copies of professional work
exactly?
>
> 4. Go back to the book titles. The tc-rtc survives, if barely. The irtc does
From the beginning, there has been grumbling about the book titles,
many people feeling surprisingly unsure about how to interpret them. I
don't think that Stephen and I will really abandon the titles concept
but adapt it to a different (wider?) scope.
>
Hmm. Not so narrow for some people :-)
>
> 6. Post actual WIPs (emphasis on the P) in P.B.I to encourage anyone there to
> come take a look at the tc-rtc.
Personally, I am a bit reluctant about this although I understand the
idea. While working for the TC-RTC I want it to be entirely my own work,
without suggestions during progress which might influence the outcome.
However, I might consider posting the finished scene to p.b.i. and get
the comments afterwards...
>
> 7. Find my password.
I did. See point 1.
Thomas
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Stephen <mca### [at] aol com> wrote:
> I have sent you an individual newsletter asking you to get in touch with
> me so that I can reset your password and give you a new one.
That problem has been solved. Thank you very much. I should have asked here
years ago.
> > 2. Give more constructive feedback to all of the entries. Encourage people
> I wish that I could force people to do that.
days. Maybe one image in ten on cg talk receives any comment at all.
> > 3. Encourage everyone to back off the bad copies of professional work and
> > explore still life, abstract, surrealism, architecture and other genres more
> I don't agree with that. Just look at Thomas's entry for "History and
> Practice of the Art of Photography" March 2011
> http://www.tc-rtc.co.uk/member/imagenewdisplay/index325.html
/meant/ to say. What I /meant/ to say is that people should dial back the
ambition and establish a more irtc-like metric for judging images. Some simple
images won the irtc, but every winner, iirc, was print-ready. I assume that the
and that entrants would be encouraged by their objective success.
> One of the big problems that we have is that we now have no control over
> the site development. It is frozen the way it is. :-(
>
> But as we speak Thomas and I are discussing an alternative.
Yes, the sight is a little clunky. Even though I can see images without logging
http://www.tc-rtc.co.uk/imagenewdisplay/stills/index325.html
-Shay
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Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> BTW, after controlling, the password you used for your new membership
> seems to be the same as for the username Shay. Could you please confirm
> or infirm this?
Thank you.
> As far as p.b.i. is concerned, there still is a fair amount of active
> commenting from the remaining community.
Absolutely. P.b.i is a special place. I should find the time to drop in more
often.
> I guess technical preoccupations overrule the wish to
> finish an image...
> maybe people are not really
> interested any more in producing quality.
No one expects any kind of follow-through. I read last year that communicating
resolutions are *less* likely to pursue the satisfaction of completing those
And we allow that crap. I went to my 20-year High School reunion last year. A
girl from school with a typical-middle-aged, flabby build announced to the group
that she was a health nut, despite plain evidence to the contrary. Unbelievably,
people were asking her for diet advice on facebook for weeks after the reunion.
Many members of the POV community have a fascination and familiarity with
Beginnings. They understand and are able to discuss nascent ideas and basic
appreciated because the path from Beginning to End cannot be seen. To each his
own, but obviously this short-attention-span focus has a hard time maintaining a
community.
> Not sure I follow you here. What are the bad copies of professional work
> exactly?
Stephen.
> From the beginning, there has been grumbling about the book titles,
> many people feeling surprisingly unsure about how to interpret them. I
> don't think that Stephen and I will really abandon the titles concept
> but adapt it to a different (wider?) scope.
only of rocks, but, looking at the book-chapter titles, I found many fascinating
*verbs* that could each be subjects themselves. Irtc topics always included a
few sentences of suggestions.
> Hmm. Not so narrow for some people :-)
make *no* claims of objectivity.
-Shay
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The problem with a few of these items is that it is seen a 'competition':
This can possibly lead to a few things:
1. No sharing WIP, as other could take their ideas
2. Fewer comments, just mark and move on...
3. Poor attendance, as many may feel that they can't compete
4. Some seemingly lackluster entries, made just to get an entry in. (I want to
be careful here to distinguish between lackluster, and new-user vs advanced
user.)
5. There will be only 1 winner, and a few runners up or honourable mentions.
(which in turn leads to many of the above)
Presenting as a 'challenge' instead could be more engaging to users:
1. WIP is more vital to the development of the process" (How am I doing? What's
missing. What working not/working.)
2. Helps lead to further development of user skills: they can learn by trying
and advice
3. Lead to development of the software: Users can learn to push the limits or
look where things can be added or improved in the software itself
4. Users may be more inclined to take part as they can get feedback and develop
and not feel pressured about being 'up against' the advanced users.
This is generally in the spirit of how P.B.I. works, but with a little more
focus and direction with periodic specific challenges.
I also see the "3D Render Lighting Challenge" as a bit of this model, as this is
how it has worked. Also (previously, as it seems the initial moderator seems to
have moved away from it) there were many 'winners', a hall-of-fame type gallery
was put up of several chosen completed images.
Also when preseting a challenge, particular challenges can be keyed top certain
skills. EG, the Lighting Challenge I mention primarily deals with a
pre-selected scene, which you are then responsible for lighting, so it tends to
help hone the users' lighting skills (though texturing can be just as important
for lighting).
Different challenge types can focus on or help towards certain areas: e.g.
lighting, texturing, modeling (CSG or mesh), scene building and framing, plus
many other that can help users develop skills in different manners.
Another similar example, is on some FLICKR groups a monthly challenge is set up,
where the previous months winner choses a theme for the next challenge. The
theme is quite often very different in what will fit in the topic from specific
("Architecture" "Landscape" "Birds") to more general or abstract ("Purple"
"Winter") to different camera or composition skills ("Low Light" "Low Angle"
"Square Format")
These are all just spit-ball ideas but hopefully help in putting something
together that can work.
-tgq
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Shay wrote:
[snip]
> Thomas de Groot wrote:
> > I guess technical preoccupations overrule the wish to
> > finish an image...
>
> > maybe people are not really
> > interested any more in producing quality.
[snip]
> Many members of the POV community have a fascination and familiarity with
> Beginnings. They understand and are able to discuss nascent ideas and basic
> appreciated because the path from Beginning to End cannot be seen. To each his
> own, but obviously this short-attention-span focus has a hard time maintaining a
> community.
This is a fascinating observation.
I had some experience with something like this regarding the f_mandelbulb
function I posted several years ago. There was some good discussion about
implementation (Beginnings), but almost no feedback from users. For all I know,
no one but me has ever used either the SDL include file or the source code
patches I posted. Although I have implemented some other weird variations
(quaternion and bicomplex versions) for my own amusement, I haven't bothered to
post them for the apparent lack of interest. But back to the topic at hand.
Here's why I have never entered any of the ray tracing competitions, despite
having used such software since I got my first Amiga, and followed the
competetions as long as I can remember. First, it takes me at least a week, and
often longer, to come up with an idea that fits both the topic and what I
consider my skills, and is something I think I can do in half of the remaining
time. I am in the habit of doubling my estimatate of how long it will take me to
finish a programming task, which is why I halve the remaining time available.
Unfortunately, even this rule of thumb has proven insufficient. Every scene (and
once or twice animation) I have started for a competition has taken closer to
five to ten times the effort I originally estimate. But, the fact that I won't
complete it in time becomes obvious a week or two before the deadline, so I
abandon the project, often before having something suitable even for posting as
a work in progress.
Perhaps extending the competition period will help. It's hard to say at this
point. The current topic has proven to be particularly difficult for me to come
up with a suitable idea.
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On 25-5-2013 0:10, waggy wrote:
> Shay wrote:
>> Many members of the POV community have a fascination and familiarity with
>> Beginnings. They understand and are able to discuss nascent ideas and basic
>> appreciated because the path from Beginning to End cannot be seen. To each his
>> own, but obviously this short-attention-span focus has a hard time maintaining a
>> community.
>
> This is a fascinating observation.
>
> I had some experience with something like this regarding the f_mandelbulb
> function I posted several years ago. There was some good discussion about
> implementation (Beginnings), but almost no feedback from users. For all I know,
> no one but me has ever used either the SDL include file or the source code
> patches I posted. Although I have implemented some other weird variations
> (quaternion and bicomplex versions) for my own amusement, I haven't bothered to
> post them for the apparent lack of interest. But back to the topic at hand.
I wonder if it is lack of interest at all. I am almost sure it isn't.
The point about users is that available code like yours must then 'fit'
into a scene a user might build. It is not enough to play around with
it, as enjoyable that could be otherwise. I have this same experience
with the code I posted in the past (the cobblestones macro, or the very
complex isosurface landscape macros). As far as I can tell, I may be the
only one to use them :-) Inversely, I have a huge pool of code from
others. Some I use regularly; some, once in a while; some, never. It all
depends on the project under way.
>
> Here's why I have never entered any of the ray tracing competitions, ,snip> But, the
fact that I won't
> complete it in time becomes obvious a week or two before the deadline, so I
> abandon the project, often before having something suitable even for posting as
> a work in progress.
I can very well understand this indeed.
>
> Perhaps extending the competition period will help. It's hard to say at this
> point. The current topic has proven to be particularly difficult for me to come
> up with a suitable idea.
Well, the current topic runs until mid August, so why not have try? I am
sure your mandelbulb code could be used for that for instance.
Thomas
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"waggy" <hon### [at] handbasketorg> wrote:
> Shay wrote:
> [snip]
> > Thomas de Groot wrote:
> > > I guess technical preoccupations overrule the wish to
> > > finish an image...
> >
> > > maybe people are not really
> > > interested any more in producing quality.
> [snip]
> > Many members of the POV community have a fascination and familiarity with
> > Beginnings. They understand and are able to discuss nascent ideas and basic
> > appreciated because the path from Beginning to End cannot be seen. To each his
> > own, but obviously this short-attention-span focus has a hard time maintaining a
> > community.
>
> This is a fascinating observation.
>
> I had some experience with something like this regarding the f_mandelbulb
> function I posted several years ago. There was some good discussion about
> implementation (Beginnings), but almost no feedback from users. For all I know,
> no one but me has ever used either the SDL include file or the source code
> patches I posted. Although I have implemented some other weird variations
> (quaternion and bicomplex versions) for my own amusement, I haven't bothered to
> post them for the apparent lack of interest. But back to the topic at hand.
>
> Here's why I have never entered any of the ray tracing competitions, despite
> having used such software since I got my first Amiga, and followed the
> competetions as long as I can remember. First, it takes me at least a week, and
> often longer, to come up with an idea that fits both the topic and what I
> consider my skills, and is something I think I can do in half of the remaining
> time. I am in the habit of doubling my estimatate of how long it will take me to
> finish a programming task, which is why I halve the remaining time available.
> Unfortunately, even this rule of thumb has proven insufficient. Every scene (and
> once or twice animation) I have started for a competition has taken closer to
> five to ten times the effort I originally estimate. But, the fact that I won't
> complete it in time becomes obvious a week or two before the deadline, so I
> abandon the project, often before having something suitable even for posting as
> a work in progress.
>
> Perhaps extending the competition period will help. It's hard to say at this
> point. The current topic has proven to be particularly difficult for me to come
> up with a suitable idea.
Yes, posting code to the pov-b-sf can be a little bit frustrating since you have
no feedback. Only the persons who answer the corresponding newgroups entries can
be recognized, and that are few usually. I have no idea if someone ever
downloaded my rose garden scene (a tunnel, not more) just for an example.
Sometimes I think about establishing an own web-site - than you have a feedback
from your provider about the accesses - but for the moment I think that my
efforts so far didn't justify an own web-presence.
Best regards,
Michael
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"waggy" <hon### [at] handbasketorg> wrote in message
news:web.519fe53e76c5c07f21be1230@news.povray.org...
> Shay wrote:
>> Many members of the POV community have a fascination and familiarity with
>> Beginnings. They understand and are able to discuss nascent ideas and
>> basic
>> macros. Endings (completed images, Tor-level macros) aren't even fully
>> appreciated because the path from Beginning to End cannot be seen. To
>> each his
>> own, but obviously this short-attention-span focus has a hard time
>> maintaining a
>> community.
>
> This is a fascinating observation.
>
> I had some experience with something like this regarding the f_mandelbulb
> function I posted several years ago. There was some good discussion about
> implementation (Beginnings), but almost no feedback from users. For all I
> know,
> no one but me has ever used either the SDL include file or the source code
> patches I posted. Although I have implemented some other weird variations
> (quaternion and bicomplex versions) for my own amusement, I haven't
> bothered to
> post them for the apparent lack of interest. But back to the topic at
> hand.
That's near what I was getting at, but not exactly.
Imagine if you painted a picture of a lion and showed it to an audience who
not only have never seen a lion, but also have never tried painting a
picture. You might get comments like "that oily, pigmented stuff is cool!"
or "that's like when I painted my living room, except smaller and with more
colors."
Not that these comments aren't valid, but the audience is not challenged by
your accomplishment and you are not challenged by your audience.
Of course, when I came to POV-Ray as a beginner so many years ago, I judged
images by the amount and quality of their photons and reflections. I admired
most what came most easily. Now I'm weary of that comes easily. Now I spend
weeks or months on every picture. Now I'm confined to the narrowest of cg
niches (hand-coded mesh). And this is the expected progression of any
artist.
It's long past time for me to stop completely or become a beginner again.
>
> Here's why I have never entered any of the ray tracing competitions,
I'll point out that the tc-rtc is not a competition; it's a Ray-Tracing
CHALLENGE. Also, fractals seem like a good fit for the round.
-Shay
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On 27-5-2013 14:10, Shay wrote:
> "waggy" <hon### [at] handbasketorg> wrote in message
> news:web.519fe53e76c5c07f21be1230@news.povray.org...
>> Shay wrote:
>>> Many members of the POV community have a fascination and familiarity
>>> with
>>> Beginnings. They understand and are able to discuss nascent ideas and
>>> basic
>>> macros. Endings (completed images, Tor-level macros) aren't even fully
>>> appreciated because the path from Beginning to End cannot be seen. To
>>> each his
>>> own, but obviously this short-attention-span focus has a hard time
>>> maintaining a
>>> community.
>>
>> This is a fascinating observation.
>>
>> I had some experience with something like this regarding the f_mandelbulb
>> function I posted several years ago. There was some good discussion about
>> implementation (Beginnings), but almost no feedback from users. For
>> all I know,
>> no one but me has ever used either the SDL include file or the source
>> code
>> patches I posted. Although I have implemented some other weird variations
>> (quaternion and bicomplex versions) for my own amusement, I haven't
>> bothered to
>> post them for the apparent lack of interest. But back to the topic at
>> hand.
>
> That's near what I was getting at, but not exactly.
>
> Imagine if you painted a picture of a lion and showed it to an audience
> who not only have never seen a lion, but also have never tried painting
> a picture. You might get comments like "that oily, pigmented stuff is
> cool!" or "that's like when I painted my living room, except smaller and
> with more colors."
>
> Not that these comments aren't valid, but the audience is not challenged
> by your accomplishment and you are not challenged by your audience.
>
> Of course, when I came to POV-Ray as a beginner so many years ago, I
> judged images by the amount and quality of their photons and
> reflections. I admired most what came most easily. Now I'm weary of that
> comes easily. Now I spend weeks or months on every picture. Now I'm
> confined to the narrowest of cg niches (hand-coded mesh). And this is
> the expected progression of any artist.
Very true indeed. I also am spending more and more time and efforts on
seemingly trivial details but which - in the end - turn out to be essential.
>
> It's long past time for me to stop completely or become a beginner again.
>
>>
>> Here's why I have never entered any of the ray tracing competitions,
>
> I'll point out that the tc-rtc is not a competition; it's a Ray-Tracing
> CHALLENGE. Also, fractals seem like a good fit for the round.
Exactly! And we shall see if we can smooth down the competition part a
bit more.
Thomas
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Shay wrote:
> Imagine if you painted a picture of a lion and showed it to an audience who
> not only have never seen a lion, but also have never tried painting a
> picture. You might get comments like "that oily, pigmented stuff is cool!"
> or "that's like when I painted my living room, except smaller and with more
> colors."
>
> Not that these comments aren't valid, but the audience is not challenged by
> your accomplishment and you are not challenged by your audience.
>
I think I see what you're getting at. I've never seen a five-legged rock lizard
from Aldebaron Prime, and I have never tried sculpting stone. Yet if I saw such
a sculpture, I would not think that it was like breaking stones for placement in
a garden wall, but more detailed.
Experienced sculptors may be able to comment on the technical execution of the
piece, but I could still consider it as any other artwork. Does it inspire a
narrative, tell a story to me? Does it "work" for its intended purpose? Does it
look like the sculptor even cares about the work, and by implication, the
subject?
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