so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a delicate
disposition, do not read on.

I wanted to air, for some time now, the (perceived) grievances I harbour
regarding all-things-POV-Ray.

being used as a benchmarking s/ware when new processors are launched
is nice _but_ should not be(come) the primary (or only) role of POV-Ray.

POV-Ray, as a product, is .. lacking, across the spectrum, imo.
if POV-Ray was a human, I'd say that it is a magnificent body,
withering away because the head is .. ill.

let's start with the website, because for potential new users, that is
what will be looked at.

in the "POV-Ray-related News", for instance, we have "POV-Ray 3.7.1"
entering the  "beta phase".  3.8 alphas do not, apparently, exist,
and no mention of direction/what's happening now, either.

for instance, on April 14th 2018 user "Fred Lopes" announced a book
on POV-Ray, free, albeit in Portuguese/Brazilian.
not newsworthy, apparently.  in fact, not a single reply was posted.

the most recent item is a bit of .. self-congratulatory back-slapping,
dated Aug 2019, but the bulk of items is dated 2016, and older.

also, while the HOF sidebar _is_ nice, showing more recent works, on
a rotating basis, would be good/better.  you know, stuff by artists,
Norbert Kern, for instance, the Thomas de Groot's, Pekka Aho's, etc.

and regarding the "Resources : Links" page, why is it allowed to be so
lacking in relevance?  and to be so _full_ of dead links?
is the 'POV-TAG' doing any work, at all?

and why does the "Support" button simply link to the NNTP server?
(suggest the Wiki would be a more appropriate target)

and POV-Ray ought to have a (well-advertised) IRC channel too, imo.

then there's the (perceived) lack of direction.
so, WFP is developing 'povr', JG is developing his 'hg' series,
but _who_ is working on POV-Ray's development?

not helped by the fact that feature requests, when they're made in
a newsgroup post, do not even elicit a developer's response, generally;
('clipka' being the noteworthy exception)

what is needed, desperately imo, is keeping users in-the-loop, that is,
publish what is being worked on and an approximate schedule, regarding
those features.  tell "us", roughly, when will we be going from 3.8.0a
to the next release.

and it would be nice to think that when you make decisions wrt future
development, you will not do things like creating a dependency on a
multimedia and gaming library (SDL) just to draw a window!

then, lastly, there's the .. inertia.  the "illness" of the head.
how many years have you now been sitting on the Moray source?
(hint: Tony Blair was then still Prime Minister of the UK, and
the financial crisis of 2008 was not yet on the horizon)

lack of resources, whether $$ or people, cannot be an explanation,
because, if it were, then why are offers of financial support, and or
a willingness to purchase POV-Ray related content, totally ignored?

basically then, I blame the people at the top, the mysterious POV-TAG
team, and Messrs Cason and Froehlich, for the .. stagnance (and more).
proud to have their names in the banner, but not willing (or able) to
pull their thumbs out of the collective back-orifice.


exasperated regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

"jr" <cre### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a delicate
> disposition, do not read on.
>
> I wanted to air, for some time now, the (perceived) grievances I harbour
> regarding all-things-POV-Ray.
>
> being used as a benchmarking s/ware when new processors are launched
> is nice _but_ should not be(come) the primary (or only) role of POV-Ray.
>
> POV-Ray, as a product, is .. lacking, across the spectrum, imo.
> if POV-Ray was a human, I'd say that it is a magnificent body,
> withering away because the head is .. ill.
>
> let's start with the website, because for potential new users, that is
> what will be looked at.
>
> in the "POV-Ray-related News", for instance, we have "POV-Ray 3.7.1"
> entering the  "beta phase".  3.8 alphas do not, apparently, exist,
> and no mention of direction/what's happening now, either.
>
> for instance, on April 14th 2018 user "Fred Lopes" announced a book
> on POV-Ray, free, albeit in Portuguese/Brazilian.
> not newsworthy, apparently.  in fact, not a single reply was posted.
>
> the most recent item is a bit of .. self-congratulatory back-slapping,
> dated Aug 2019, but the bulk of items is dated 2016, and older.
>
> also, while the HOF sidebar _is_ nice, showing more recent works, on
> a rotating basis, would be good/better.  you know, stuff by artists,
> Norbert Kern, for instance, the Thomas de Groot's, Pekka Aho's, etc.
>
> and regarding the "Resources : Links" page, why is it allowed to be so
> lacking in relevance?  and to be so _full_ of dead links?
> is the 'POV-TAG' doing any work, at all?
>
> and why does the "Support" button simply link to the NNTP server?
> (suggest the Wiki would be a more appropriate target)
>
> and POV-Ray ought to have a (well-advertised) IRC channel too, imo.
>
> then there's the (perceived) lack of direction.
> so, WFP is developing 'povr', JG is developing his 'hg' series,
> but _who_ is working on POV-Ray's development?
>
> not helped by the fact that feature requests, when they're made in
> a newsgroup post, do not even elicit a developer's response, generally;
> ('clipka' being the noteworthy exception)
>
> what is needed, desperately imo, is keeping users in-the-loop, that is,
> publish what is being worked on and an approximate schedule, regarding
> those features.  tell "us", roughly, when will we be going from 3.8.0a
> to the next release.
>
> and it would be nice to think that when you make decisions wrt future
> development, you will not do things like creating a dependency on a
> multimedia and gaming library (SDL) just to draw a window!
>
> then, lastly, there's the .. inertia.  the "illness" of the head.
> how many years have you now been sitting on the Moray source?
> (hint: Tony Blair was then still Prime Minister of the UK, and
> the financial crisis of 2008 was not yet on the horizon)
>
> lack of resources, whether $$ or people, cannot be an explanation,
> because, if it were, then why are offers of financial support, and or
> a willingness to purchase POV-Ray related content, totally ignored?
>
> basically then, I blame the people at the top, the mysterious POV-TAG
> team, and Messrs Cason and Froehlich, for the .. stagnance (and more).
> proud to have their names in the banner, but not willing (or able) to
> pull their thumbs out of the collective back-orifice.
>
>
> exasperated regards, jr.


not only has PovRay changed.
The whole world of hobby programming has evolved and shrunk to a few hundred
people worldwide.
(I DO NOT consider programming activities to put together something written and
copied for smartphones). In 40 years, the ability and interest of the population
in somewhat complex mental structures has diminished. Everything else is a
consequence of a failed world. I don't know why, maybe it's just the story that
has a negative cycle.

Post a reply to this message

On 02.07.2020 11:57, jr wrote:
> basically then, I blame the people at the top, the mysterious POV-TAG
> team, and Messrs Cason and Froehlich, for the .. stagnance (and more).
> proud to have their names in the banner, but not willing (or able) to
> pull their thumbs out of the collective back-orifice.

No, actually, I left the team many years ago. It is just that since I 
left, no new major release has happened, hence I am still pretty far at 
the top of the list of developers. Chris has also mostly moved on, he 
just keeps the website and this server running.

If nobody takes over, this is the way it is ... and yes, I do share your 
sense that everything is outdated. But really not my problem, given this 
is open source...

Thorsten

Post a reply to this message

in news:5efdd904@news.povray.org Thorsten wrote:

> open source...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzxcILudFWM

Post a reply to this message

On 02.07.2020 18:59, ingo wrote:
> in news:5efdd904@news.povray.org Thorsten wrote:
>> open source...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzxcILudFWM

Well, some people think this way, I know. Quick rewards is all that is 
left on the internet, I know. However, if you have to put no effort into 
achievement, does it have any value?

Post a reply to this message

This post raises a few questions which are worthy of discussion. There
are some issues in play that most people would not expect. I'll post a
followup covering as much of them as I can once I get time to write it
up (should be less than a day).

-- Chris

Post a reply to this message

Op 02/07/2020 om 11:57 schreef jr:
> so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a delicate
> disposition, do not read on.
> 
[snip]

I am glad you started this discussion. For a number of years I too have 
been wondering what really was going on behind the scene, with sometimes 
getting a hint about possible issues (man power and time most 
obviously). I believe we all would be helped with a bit of serious 
information, not in the least because we - as  mostly long-time users - 
might perhaps offer some kinds of solutions.

-- 
Thomas

Post a reply to this message

hi,

"GioSeregni" <gms### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
> "jr" <cre### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> > so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a delicate
> > disposition, do not read on.  ...
>
> not only has PovRay changed.
> The whole world of hobby programming has evolved and shrunk to a few hundred
> people worldwide.

yes, it feels that way, unfortunately.

> (I DO NOT consider programming activities to put together something written and
> copied for smartphones). In 40 years, the ability and interest of the population
> in somewhat complex mental structures has diminished.

again, agree, it _certainly_ feels that way.

> Everything else is a consequence of a failed world. I don't know why, maybe
> it's just the story that has a negative cycle.

coming to a "grinding halt"[*] soon, though (there _always_ is a silver lining..
 :-))


regards, jr.

[*] with apologies to The Cure.

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> Op 02/07/2020 om 11:57 schreef jr:
> > so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a delicate
> > disposition, do not read on.
> >
> [snip]
>
> I am glad you started this discussion. For a number of years I too have
> been wondering ...

thanks.  yes, long overdue.  fingers crossed.


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Thorsten <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> On 02.07.2020 11:57, jr wrote:
> > basically then, I blame the people at the top, the mysterious POV-TAG
> > team, and Messrs Cason and Froehlich, for the .. stagnance (and more).
> > proud to have their names in the banner, but not willing (or able) to
> > pull their thumbs out of the collective back-orifice.
>
> No, actually, I left the team many years ago.

unless you left on or around February 2007, I don't see how that absolves you
from (yr share of) the blame, ie letting POV-Ray "run down" to its present
state.

> ...   But really not my problem, given this is open source...

ime, flippancy/glibness can be a bit like an auto-immune response -- entirely
subconscious.


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message