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On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 22:39:06 -0400, Bald Eagle wrote:
> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospam com> wrote:
>
>> I think it's fair to say that those who started the discussion have
>> been around long enough to know that it's a volunteer effort.
>
> I think it's fair to say that the _nature_ of that "volunteering" may
> not be, and apparently isn't clear.
> It's murky and ambiguous - and that leads to assumptions about things on
> either side. "Those in the know" and "those that aren't".
> If someone volunteers to do work at a charity or something like that,
> but when they're there they play on their cell phone, stand outside
> smoking, watching TV,
> or doing anything BUT what they putatively volunteered for... and then
> when one of the recipients shows up looking for the product of the
> charitable effort [or lack thereof] --- I think there is going to be
> some friction.
> There's no hard and fast "deserving" and "owing" - but the charity was
> established _for the purpose of doing charity work_.
> So when the person "involved with the charity" isn't doing any
> charitable work -
> the typical minds wonders 'what they are doing there?" and WHY.
I don't think it's unclear what "volunteering" means when a project is an
open project. It's a little different when you're volunteering for
Habitat for Humanity. Those for whom you volunteer do set some
expectations, and that's fine.
This is hardly Habitat for Humanity.
> I mean, there's not going to be a bench warrant issued for clipka or
> anyone else who's left, but it's easy to post a one liner saying that
> you won't be back for a while - or ever. If someone doesn't call in to
> he charity they volunteer at, is it _unreasonable_ for someone to call
> them and ask why they didn't show up, if they'll be back, etc?
>
> My point is that _whatever_ goes on HERE is different than that, and in
> order to make it clear and avoid any future misunderstandings by anyone
> about anything, that point should be clarified and posted at the
> entryway, and distributed with the Read Me.
> That's my suggestion.
It should be pretty abundantly clear now, if it wasn't before. I mean,
all one has to do is look at when the last release was in any code
project (or the last commits) to see how active the project is.
>> Indeed, the individual who started the entire discussion is one of the
>> most prolific posters in these forums.
>
> jr (he is?)
Yes. I happened to run some stats (not to see how vocal anyone is, that
was just a side effect; I was looking to see what the most commonly used
access to these forums was. I was quite surprised to learn that it is
still generally newsreaders rather than the web interface). It was
something I volunteered to do. 200,000 messages, more or less, since
about 1996, across all groups (p.b.i is the largest group by far; but off-
topic is IIRC the second).
>> I think it's reasonable to expect that volunteers do with their time
>> what they want to do with their time, and if that means releases are
>> slower than one might expect, well, that's the nature of software
>> developed by volunteers.
>
> It is. The point is that it's ALSO reasonable for many of the 10
> billion people on this planet to expect that the volunteer will at some
> point be doing what they volunteered to do. And I specifically mean
> that not in a selfish and entitled "expect" way, but from a "well what
> the heck is going on, then" way.
It's pretty easy to assume that people have lives outside of what they
volunteer to do, and they get busy.
And when there's a pandemic on, well, if someone's not right on the nose
with when you ask what's going on, that seems a little.....impatient.
Unthinking.
> I mean, I read virtually every post, every day, and have for --- 7 years
> now?
> I answer questions, research documentation, find and fix source code
> bugs, make and fix objects and textures for people, and even sometimes
> write entire scene files with includes and macros.
Indeed, you volunteer and help folks out quite a bit. That analysis that
I did also identified you as being quite busy here :)
> But was it apparent to me that the only person left is Chris Cason? No.
> Certainly I had assumed that there was this "list" of people that
> conducted official POV-Ray business and knew the secret handshake and
> did all of the things that magically happen on GitHub and FlySpray and
> the website and other places - M. Grimbert, Mr. Pokorny, the now
> vanished C. Lipka, ...
> It simply comes as a surprise when people involved mention that "Oh, we
> haven't heard from THAT guy for 2, 5, 10 years...."
Time moves on. I find it hard to believe that when I was laid off from a
job I really enjoyed was nearly 10 years ago. Seems like yesterday in
some respects. I joke at work "how is it July? Last I checked, it was
January....of 2019!" It's easy to lose track of time.
>> Those who want it to move faster can learn how to code (or contribute
>> in other ways).
>
> They can... But as I pointed out, it's not as simple as that, especially
> when you're "on the outside" and "in the dark".
> "If you don't like it here, leave."
> "If you don't speak [C++], go back to [wherever you came from."
> Like that?
Of course not. But coding isn't the only way in which one can
contribute. As I mentioned elsewhere, complaining about broken links is
something that anyone can do. Listing broken links, finding the
replacement URLs (if they exist), and documenting them? That's *also*
something anyone can do, and is a bit more helpful. I know - that was
something I spent some time on the last time we did broken link
checking. It's work that's easy enough to do, though it is tedious.
My point is that asking questions is *fine*. Demanding answers is
*not*. And instead of creating a long bitchlist of things you wish were
better, saying "here's something that I think needs some help, and I can
help with it" is how things can get done in an open source project (or a
project where a community is working together).
> Suppose that Stephen takes it upon himself to volunteer to do some
> amazing mesh work with all the breast-jiggle that anyone could ever hope
> to see, and every facet of his project is POV-Ray this and POV-Ray
> that....
> I'm sure some special little snowflake will be ALL OVER him about what
> he can and cannot do.
Of course. And I would expect the community to be all over that
individual for demanding that Stephen "fix" the work that he put in
because it doesn't work to their specifications.
> Now maybe he CAN, and there's jack that anyone can do about it.
> But I'm proposing that your average person might not be so assertive in
> their grabbing what they perceive is someone else's bull by the horns
> and leading it off to a livestock show where they show it off.
At that point, it's best to ASK how one can help out. Not demand that
something be fixed. Not pretend (or act) like you're the other person's
boss.
> Can I just go ahead and make some social media accounts under "POV-Ray"?
You ask Chris. That's pretty straightforward.
> Do _I_
> decide what content to post? Am I now affiliated with POV-Ray because I
> say so?
No, and no. You ask Chris. It's his project.
> Do I now speak on behalf of POV-Ray, because I feel like it? Can I post
> other people's work with whatever attributions may exist, so that people
> can see what POV-Ray can do?
If they give you permission, yes. If they don't, now. Rights still
exist. I don't see this as rocket science. If an image (or someone's
work) is copyrighted, you ask. If it isn't, or you don't know, you ask
them if you can share it.
I suspect most people learned this stuff in kindergarten. How to share.
How to not take stuff that isn't yours. How to ask if you can play with
their toy.
> I mean, on the one hand, there are people who get their panties all in a
> twist, wring their hands, and clutch their pearls over "intellectual
> property rights" and licenses, concerning macros and include files
> written by people that no one hears from anymore and no one can even be
> certain if they're even still alive. So on the other hand, without
> someone, somewhere, "officially" associated with the POV-Ray project,
> team, company, etc communicating with them in some way to clarify
> things, most people are going to experience a bit of apprehension and
> timidity.
> And WHO do they contact? It's not like there's a list of email
> addresses prominently posted anywhere.
Chris owns the project. If there's ever a question, you ask Chris.
Again, I don't see this as a difficult thing to understand.
>> Further, to state that some individuals (such as myself) should not be
>> "wasting time with a discussion" but instead get in there and work on
>> the wiki (or whatever)
>
> This does not seem materially different from you telling someone else
> that they should learn to code or do something productive.
But it is.
If I tell you "get on fixing the wiki" - I'm acting like your boss. I'm
not your boss; if you feel like fixing the wiki (and have the knowledge
and access to do so), that's up to you.
Telling someone "if you think things are broken, ask how you can help
fixing them" is empowering someone who sees something as broken to help
make it not be broken. It's saying "here's how you can help".
Those are materially different things.
>> is exactly a sense of "entitlement" - it's that entitlement of telling
>> someone who volunteers their time what they should do with their free
>> time.
>
> But they're NOT telling you what to do with your free time. They're
> looking at/to you as a volunteer and commenting on what they think would
> be best for you to do _when you're volunteering_.
Actually, that very specific thing happened in this very thread. And I
*was* told what to do with my free time.
>> Unless I ask someone for ideas about where I might help out, nobody has
>> the right to tell a volunteer (or anyone who's officially involved in
>> the project) how to spend their free time.
>
> People have a Right to say whatever they want. You have a Right to
> ignore them, be offended, feel threatened, to do something else, to
> disagree with them,
> throw a tantrum, or whatever. You don't have the authority to muzzle
> anyone. People always try to coerce others into silence, especially when
> it's by proxy. When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving
> him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might
> say. ― George R.R. Martin
Fair point. Anyone can say what they want. In a civilized society, we
consider things like how effective it is to actually approach a problem
in a particular way. How to be kind to people by default.
We seem to have forgotten this (especially these days, with people being
rude about people not wearing masks, and people being rude about being
told to put on a damn mask so they don't spread a deadly disease).
Everyone's so concerned about THEIR rights, they forget that OTHER people
have rights, too, and that if we treated each other with a little
kindness, the world might just be a better place.
>> That is precisely where my objection to the entire thing comes from.
>> That expectation that a member of the community who hasn't offered a
>> specific way in which they may help (but who, in fairness, has said
>> that they were willing to help) can make demands on the time of people
>> who volunteer (time, money, resources, whatever) is unreasonable.
>
> I dislike much of the overly pedantic fuckery on some of the interweb
> sites to the point where it's nearly intolerable. Normal people would
> take up the offer and continue a colloquial conversation by suggesting
> what they _could_ do, or asking what they think they might be able to
> help with or what their experience is.
> And he's not making _demands_. And really, who cares if he was.
> He's popping a gasket because everything has seemingly ground to a halt,
> and there was an absence of information as to how things worked and why.
Well, I see it differently; he demanded answers, he got pissed off at
Chris for taking a few days longer to get things together because Chris
was waiting for responses from people whom he needed answers from before
he could respond. Could Chris have given an update saying that? Sure.
Did he? No. Did he have reasons why he didn't? Ultimately, doesn't
matter - Chris decided how to handle it, and JR got pissed off because
Chris wasn't fast enough.
During a global pandemic. Because heaven forbid if JR's questions
shouldn't be Chris' top priority before anything else going on in his
life.
>> And left alone, those "demands" will be repeated.
>
> "This needs to be fixed."
> It could be interpreted as a "demand" - but it's fundamentally an
> assertive observation.
Yes. Maybe instead of "this needs to be fixed", how about "I'm looking
for information about x, can someone help me?"
> If everyone who walked into a charity tripped over the threshold of the
> entry door and then finally someone said something about it, I'm _pretty
> sure_ that the response wouldn't be "Who let YOU in, and what did you do
> to offer to fix it? Why don't you go learn some carpentry and fix it
> yourself? Can't you see this is a charity, staffed with volunteers?
> Maybe you should just go away."
Different situation. Nobody's physical safety was threatened by Chris'
lack of response or the lack of recent releases of POV-Ray.
>> So let's disabuse anyone of the notion right now that when people
>> volunteer to do something, nobody has any right to expect anything from
>> those doing the work.
>
> People have a Right to expect whatever they want - and to be
> disappointed.
I pity the person who goes around being disappointed that people aren't
responding fast enough to inquiries about software development generally
used by hobbyists for fun.
>> Asking politely for what's happening is one thing. Putting together a
>> laundry list of complaints (and prefacing it with "those of a delicate
>> disposition should stop reading now" indicates that the author clearly
>> KNEW they were complaining to people they had no right to be
>> complaining to).
>
> In general, this is preferably the way things ought to happen.
> But anyone who has lived out in real world knows that sometimes people
> are asleep, in their own little worlds, and ignoring more than they
> should.
True.
> And in order for anything to happen, they need to Make A Big Noise and
> shake people out of the rut.
And in some circumstances, that's appropriate. Rioting in Portland?
Police brutality? Bad decision making that's hurting everyone because we
can't learn to put a damn mask on because "freedom" over "showing
compassion for other people?" Probably all good things to make a little
bit of a stink about.
My favorite free software not being updated? Maybe tone it down a bit
first and ask how one can help before unloading with both barrels - and
as noted, jr's initial post made it clear he *knew* he was being rude,
and he didn't care to refocus his questions in more constructive way.
And now that action is happening, he's happy to consider his approach a
*success*. It's encouraged the same kind of rudeness for future
questions.
That's a terrible precedent.
>> I have a problem with being told that my statements "lack veracity". I
>> have *never* been untruthful in my statements here - and I make a point
>> of not "playing games" or being untruthful or misleading people.
>
> I suppose I have no real option other than to accept that at face value.
Sure. But maybe giving me the benefit of the doubt until proven wrong is
a good approach. I try to give everyone that, and while I sometimes am
disappointed, I more often than not am not.
>> I'm happy to move past that part of the conversation, but I feel it
>> important to make it clear what my issue is with this whole thing - as
>> someone who has, on occasion, felt motivated to pitch in in what ways I
>> am able to (and who is entirely willing to do it again, time
>> permitting).
>
> And so you have.
Indeed. I like to do as I say. Another thing that I'm told I am good at
- maintaining a high "do/say" ratio.
> Just curious:
> How much of your life have you allowed jr to take up because "someone
> [him] on the Internet was WRONG!!" ?
More than I should have. I usually just ignore it. But sometimes, I
just have to speak MY mind when I see someone being rude. As I noted
before (in different words), communities that self-police (and this one
is like that) depend on people standing up and saying "knock it off"
every once in a while.
As an example, the amateur radio community doesn't work if it isn't self-
policed. In the US, we're expected to follow the FCC rules around use of
the airwaves, but the FCC doesn't enforce it - we enforce it ourselves,
because we don't want the bandwidth to be given to someone else.
I've been doing online community stuff since I was a teenager in the mid
80s. There have always been people with that sense of 'entitlement'.
There always will be, and with social media, that has gotten worse.
Treating people with respect and dignity is something that should be the
default behavior, and when it doesn't happen, it needs to be called out
for what it is. That's one of the few ways to correct the patterns we
see now.
Just shutting up and hoping it will go away hasn't worked, and it won't
work. As Scott Adams once wrote in a Dilbert comic, "you're awfully
brave in cyberspace, flame-boy" (not directed at you, BTW - just a
general comment on the nature of how people talk a big game on the
Internet and say things that until recently, they never would have said
face-to-face. Sadly, the world has shifted in the wrong direction, and
more people are feeling like they can act that way in the real world,
too.)
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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hi,
"Bald Eagle" <cre### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
> "jr" <cre### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> > I cannot see how to construe that ("sense of entitlement") from
> > my initial rant; it wasn't motivated by vengefulness, nor have I asked for
> > preferential treatment.
>
> This is a pivotal point, and forms the crux of much of the misunderstandings
> that occur.
>
> ...
> So when people actively maintain a piece of software for 25+ years - looking
> from the outside to be doing all of the things that a software company typically
> does - one expects them to be doing those things. Not in an entitled sense -
> but just in a general, natural, wholly predictable "this is the way I expected
> it to be" sense.
> ...
just so.
and it raises the question, in my mind, what if any benefit is there in the ..
tangential arguments, and eventual recriminations.
regards, jr.
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Just a followup to say I haven't forgotten I need to reply to a few
messages here where I promised a followup. My 'free' time tends to come
in fits and bursts and at the moment I'm not able to spend a lot of time
here. Please be patient.
-- Chris
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On 28/07/2020 03:39, Bald Eagle wrote:
> Suppose that Stephen takes it upon himself to volunteer to do some amazing mesh
> work with all the breast-jiggle that anyone could ever hope to see, and every
> facet of his project is POV-Ray this and POV-Ray that....
> I'm sure some special little snowflake will be ALL OVER him about what he can
> and cannot do.
Then Stephen would tell the little prude to FO and read the disclaimer
at the top of the project.*
You actually picked a topic I have a bee in my bonnet about. :)
Removing nipples and male genitalia because they think they are obscene.
Gets on my goat.
Generally I self sensor myself over these things. A case in point is
with the Blender Stop Motion addon. I have been testing it with mesh
sequences that for speed I use nude poser models. I have not offered the
developer those meshes as he lives in SLC and I am wary of offending him.
Thanks for reminding me. I need to test the latest version with a
complex set of OBJ files that contain body, knickers and top.
> Now maybe he CAN, and there's jack that anyone can do about it.
Except not use it.
> But I'm proposing that your average person might not be so assertive in their
> grabbing what they perceive is someone else's bull by the horns and leading it
> off to a livestock show where they show it off.
If I did that project and released it. It would be up to the user to do
what they wanted with it and I would have no reason to complain. I might
not like it but it would be out of my hands.
Anyway an option would be to cover the offending parts with a top which
itself would be animated in Poser.
* I have lived in the world, been to sea and go for the throat in a rammy.
--
Regards
Stephen
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hi,
Chris Cason <del### [at] deletethistoopovrayorg> wrote:
> Just a followup to say I haven't forgotten I need to reply to a few
> messages here where I promised a followup. My 'free' time tends to come
> in fits and bursts and at the moment I'm not able to spend a lot of time
> here. Please be patient.
(thanks)
regards, jr.
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hi,
Chris Cason <del### [at] deletethistoopovrayorg> wrote:
> Just a followup to say I haven't forgotten I need to reply to a few
> messages here where I promised a followup. My 'free' time tends to come
> in fits and bursts and at the moment I'm not able to spend a lot of time
> here. Please be patient.
great, there's news in the news section, and the HOF images change. (it feels
... less abandoned. thanks)
regards, jr.
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"jr" <cre### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> great, there's news in the news section, and the HOF images change. (it feels
> ... less abandoned. thanks)
Something in the news section (2 years old) that I think we could use over here
is
"Call for Participation"
http://www.realtimerendering.com/raytracinggems/rtg2/index.html
We invite articles on the following topics:
Basic ray tracing algorithms (intersection testing, spatial data structures,
etc.)
Unified lighting schemes
Shadows, reflections, ambient occlusion, etc.
Reconstruction, denoising, and filtering
Rasterization and ray tracing hybrids
Particles, volumetrics, and hair
Level of detail (geometric, material, and texture)
Animation schemes
Global Illumination
Occlusion Culling
Materials and BRDFs
Efficiency and best practices
Non-graphics applications (audio, collision, physics, etc.)
Virtual Reality (VR/AR/XR/MR)
Deep learning
....and any other notable work related to ray tracing
Articles will be primarily judged on practical utility. Though longer articles
with novel results are welcome, short practical articles with battle-tested
techniques are preferred and highly encouraged.
I have learned a lot from many people here on the forums and through contacting
people in academia and industry who have been kind enough to take the time to
correspond and add to my knowledge of many interesting topics.
There are a lot of topics covered in the above list that I and others have
requested or at least alluded to, and some have been worked on and developed to
some extent by the very busy folks here in our little corner of the internet.
Perhaps we could add a similar page to the POV-Ray HOME, and "seed" it with some
existing material simply written up a bit more formally as an article addressing
a specific topic.
A secondary benefit of doing this would be to invite material from academics,
hobbyists, and professionals, and provide a nice and convenient reason to
request the use of material they may already have published elsewhere.
This could also function as a mechanism to find qualified people who may have an
interest in POV-Ray and who could do some further developmental work. ;)
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Op 09/08/2020 om 20:52 schreef Bald Eagle:
> "jr" <cre### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>
>> great, there's news in the news section, and the HOF images change. (it feels
>> ... less abandoned. thanks)
>
> Something in the news section (2 years old) that I think we could use over here
> is
> "Call for Participation"
>
> http://www.realtimerendering.com/raytracinggems/rtg2/index.html
>
> We invite articles on the following topics:
>
> Basic ray tracing algorithms (intersection testing, spatial data structures,
> etc.)
> Unified lighting schemes
> Shadows, reflections, ambient occlusion, etc.
> Reconstruction, denoising, and filtering
> Rasterization and ray tracing hybrids
> Particles, volumetrics, and hair
> Level of detail (geometric, material, and texture)
> Animation schemes
> Global Illumination
> Occlusion Culling
> Materials and BRDFs
> Efficiency and best practices
> Non-graphics applications (audio, collision, physics, etc.)
> Virtual Reality (VR/AR/XR/MR)
> Deep learning
> ....and any other notable work related to ray tracing
> Articles will be primarily judged on practical utility. Though longer articles
> with novel results are welcome, short practical articles with battle-tested
> techniques are preferred and highly encouraged.
>
>
> I have learned a lot from many people here on the forums and through contacting
> people in academia and industry who have been kind enough to take the time to
> correspond and add to my knowledge of many interesting topics.
>
> There are a lot of topics covered in the above list that I and others have
> requested or at least alluded to, and some have been worked on and developed to
> some extent by the very busy folks here in our little corner of the internet.
>
> Perhaps we could add a similar page to the POV-Ray HOME, and "seed" it with some
> existing material simply written up a bit more formally as an article addressing
> a specific topic.
> A secondary benefit of doing this would be to invite material from academics,
> hobbyists, and professionals, and provide a nice and convenient reason to
> request the use of material they may already have published elsewhere.
>
> This could also function as a mechanism to find qualified people who may have an
> interest in POV-Ray and who could do some further developmental work. ;)
>
This seems to be a very good starting point indeed. I have been
pondering the issues we are faced and have been wondering if we, as end
users, could not contribute more readily one way or another our own
POV-Ray experience accumulated over the years, in short, comprehensive,
pieces of text with simple (or less simple, for those who are able to)
scenes. Most often we contribute through these ng's which is fine, but
over the years much of the information is somehow lost or forgotten and
I have noted several times that the same wheel is being invented over
and over again. Personally, I am certainly willing to contribute in this
way the things I have developed over the years and which may help
beginners or more advanced parties. I am not versed in mathematical
arcana and most of what I do is common-sense, straightforward, coding. I
am sure however, that there could be a demand for it. I am not sure in
what form this should be done and if this should be incorporated into
the web site (I think it should), but I put the idea here for further
discussion.
It is not my intention of course to revamp the content of sites like
http://www.f-lohmueller.de/pov_tut/pov__eng.htm or
http://www.econym.demon.co.uk/index.htm for instance. There is enough
other stuff.
--
Thomas
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Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> but
> over the years much of the information is somehow lost or forgotten and
> I have noted several times that the same wheel is being invented over
> and over again.
Right. I've noted that as well, and there are certainly more scene and include
files in the archives than I know what to do with.
> most of what I do is common-sense, straightforward, coding. I
> am sure however, that there could be a demand for it.
Most often I see the people with the most talent underappreciate and undervalue
themselves. It's also often not "what" you do, but how you do it. And most
often, if you have the initiative and stamina to do it at all.
> I am not sure in
> what form this should be done and if this should be incorporated into
> the web site
I've had write science articles, and have read a lot of patents --- usually one
starts out with a brief introduction (these are the basics of the heightfield)
does a short review of notable prior art (this can be a few sentences with
references/links, and then I would imagine in the present context, one might lay
out the stepwise development of a scene that uses a hf as terrain, how it gets
generated, how it gets modified and tweaked, and some of the tricks for
texturing it.
Then there may be a list of references and links that are of related interest or
further reading on the specific subject.
I would also say that articles reviewing past _unsolved_ issue may be of
interest as well - as this is instructive about how people approach the same
problem in many different ways, goes into the specifics of what has been tried,
why it doesn't work or how it falls short of the desired result, and sets out a
list of ideas that may have been pondered but not yet tried.
That way if someone has an interest in a similar subject, they will already know
that it doesn't work, and what the issues are in attempting to get it to. It
also puts ideas and problem solving strategies out there for people to learn
from and acts as a seed for brainstorming and inspiration for derivative works.
(More clever readers may get frustrated by the failed attempt and be spurred to
show how it CAN be done :D )
Lastly, and this is mostly here for completeness, would be articles that deal
with what _can't_ be done - and why. This may help someone just starting a
scene from unproductively pursuing a doomed strategy. It's also a good place to
discuss what scene coders probably do best - fake it with a workaround that's
good enough to fool the eye from the chosen perspective. Many people may be
tempted to model the exact geometry of something, or a _whole_ something, when
simply a close approximation and some clever texturing with normals will do the
trick. Billboarding. Etc.
Check THIS out :O
https://twitter.com/QTAnon1/status/1288270534493581314
Text / html in the usual sort of post would be good, but also maybe exporting it
to a PDF so it can be individually downloaded and archived might be a good idea
as well. It would also look pretty professional, and outside sites could link
to the PDF thus generating traffic to - HERE.
There should probably be a poll soliciting what actual users would like to see
covered (and why), as well as a list of people they might like/hope to see
invited articles by. (It's early and this is by no means an inclusive list)
Paul Bourke, Inigo Quilez, Tor Olav Kristensen, Jaime Vives Piqueres, Paul
Nylander, Robert McGregor, Ive, Norbert Kern, Gilles Tran, Christoph Hormann,
Samuel Benge ... and others which I may not even be aware of.
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Op 10/08/2020 om 13:19 schreef Bald Eagle:
> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>> but
>> over the years much of the information is somehow lost or forgotten and
>> I have noted several times that the same wheel is being invented over
>> and over again.
>
> Right. I've noted that as well, and there are certainly more scene and include
> files in the archives than I know what to do with.
>
Agreed.
>> most of what I do is common-sense, straightforward, coding. I
>> am sure however, that there could be a demand for it.
>
> Most often I see the people with the most talent underappreciate and undervalue
> themselves. It's also often not "what" you do, but how you do it. And most
> often, if you have the initiative and stamina to do it at all.
>
Agreed.
>> I am not sure in
>> what form this should be done and if this should be incorporated into
>> the web site
>
> I've had write science articles, and have read a lot of patents --- usually one
> starts out with a brief introduction (these are the basics of the heightfield)
> does a short review of notable prior art (this can be a few sentences with
> references/links, and then I would imagine in the present context, one might lay
> out the stepwise development of a scene that uses a hf as terrain, how it gets
> generated, how it gets modified and tweaked, and some of the tricks for
> texturing it.
> Then there may be a list of references and links that are of related interest or
> further reading on the specific subject.
>
I too have writing experience. I was musing about whether the
contributions should be 'formal' or 'informal' (layout of text, code,
images). I strongly feel it should be 'informal' as that would give the
contributor the most freedom and - certainly - stimulation to present
something to the community. At least, a low-key editing party would be
advisable though, just to keep things within their proper limits. :-)
> I would also say that articles reviewing past _unsolved_ issue may be of
> interest as well - as this is instructive about how people approach the same
> problem in many different ways, goes into the specifics of what has been tried,
> why it doesn't work or how it falls short of the desired result, and sets out a
> list of ideas that may have been pondered but not yet tried.
> That way if someone has an interest in a similar subject, they will already know
> that it doesn't work, and what the issues are in attempting to get it to. It
> also puts ideas and problem solving strategies out there for people to learn
> from and acts as a seed for brainstorming and inspiration for derivative works.
> (More clever readers may get frustrated by the failed attempt and be spurred to
> show how it CAN be done :D )
Agreed.
>
> Lastly, and this is mostly here for completeness, would be articles that deal
> with what _can't_ be done - and why. This may help someone just starting a
> scene from unproductively pursuing a doomed strategy. It's also a good place to
> discuss what scene coders probably do best - fake it with a workaround that's
> good enough to fool the eye from the chosen perspective. Many people may be
> tempted to model the exact geometry of something, or a _whole_ something, when
> simply a close approximation and some clever texturing with normals will do the
> trick. Billboarding. Etc.
>
My thoughts entirely.
> Check THIS out :O
> https://twitter.com/QTAnon1/status/1288270534493581314
>
Clever! :-)
>
>
> Text / html in the usual sort of post would be good, but also maybe exporting it
> to a PDF so it can be individually downloaded and archived might be a good idea
> as well. It would also look pretty professional, and outside sites could link
> to the PDF thus generating traffic to - HERE.
>
PDF would be most excellent indeed. It is the medium I most often use to
produce and/or archive texts myself.
>
> There should probably be a poll soliciting what actual users would like to see
> covered (and why), as well as a list of people they might like/hope to see
> invited articles by. (It's early and this is by no means an inclusive list)
> Paul Bourke, Inigo Quilez, Tor Olav Kristensen, Jaime Vives Piqueres, Paul
> Nylander, Robert McGregor, Ive, Norbert Kern, Gilles Tran, Christoph Hormann,
> Samuel Benge ... and others which I may not even be aware of.
>
Absolutely. These people, and more, are essential. Some have moved on
though, but their sites are often still available.
I believe that sites essential to the community, like those from
Lohmueller, Mike Williams, Gilles Tran, Christoph Hormann, Jaime Vives
Piqueres, etc, etc, should be showcased more proeminently on the POV-Ray
website.
--
Thomas
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