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Nicolas Alvarez escreveu:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> True, but sometimes a bicycle is all you need, you don't need a 747 to
>> take you to the corner market. ;-)
>
> A coworker told me he once went to IBM to work for a project, and the other
> people there would start Rational Software Architect every time they had to
> change a line of a config file *sigh*
that surely is rational. :)
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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Mike Raiford escreveu:
> Warp wrote:
>
>> When I press the 'p' key, for some odd reason my intuitive expectation
>> is for the letter 'p' to appear at the cursor's position, but that might
>> be just me.
Come on, Warp, I'm sure you know by now vi is a modal editor and its
primary mode is command-mode rather than edit. You have the whole
alphabetic keys binded to commands and that's what makes it so
effortless to edit text by typing sequences of such commands rather than
first getting a virtuoso degree in piano playing to handle emacs complex
key-chords...
> I've used VI for a semester in a college computer science course.
>
> I learned to hate it.
Yeah, Professor Foo probably goes like: "Now type vi file and here are
some basic commands for you. Have fun!" Surely wasn't a vi class and
it just got in the way of the tasks. You surely had no time to learn it
while you were fighting against it to get your assignments done...
And I remember you're the guy who backed down from my text-copying
challenge in this thread. ;)
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:25:15 -0300, nemesis wrote:
> Jim Henderson escreveu:
>>>> People doing change-on-the-fly editing using pipes might say that
>>>> it's noobs who use crutches like vim or emacs.
>>> Batch editing with pipes and sed has no place in today's fast-paced
>>> interactive programming.
>>
>> Oh, I don't know about that. I had to process a couple hundred e-mail
>> messages, generate PDFs of the contents, and re-send them to myself.
>> Easiest way was to export the messages to a text file and run them
>> through a few awk scripts - using pipes. Fed the results into another
>> awk script that mailed the stuff back to me.
>
> That's scripting useful tasks, but I probably got the wording ambiguous
> enough so many people replied about the same as you. Sure scripting is
> useful programming, but by "interactive programming" I meant using
> proper interactive editing tools to *edit program source code*, not awk,
> sed, ed and pipes cause that surely is insane.
Oh, I see - yeah, there are very rare cases I generate awk code using
pipes, but I have done it for a practical purpose. :-)
>> There again, you're framing it in terms of your experience. I'm
>> talking about from someone else's POV. That's much harder to judge for
>> most people because they're not used to standing in someone else's
>> shoes and saying that the other POV might have a point.
>
> It's not from my experience at all, not hard to judge for other people.
>
> I mean, surely being able to select and copy a whole block of text with
> y} is just as easy and straightforward to me as is to Joe Sixpack who've
> never seen vim before but whom I've just showed how to do it so he can
> benefit?
Yeah, for the one task, but then learning what to do with it once he's
selected it? People resist change, and if Joe Sixpack knows a different
tool he's going to naturally prefer that tool.
> Moving the mouse to start point, then scanning down the text with the
> both eyes and hands for end point and pressing shift as you click it
> then copying involves 3 time-consuming analogic and imprecise steps that
> simply don't appear when you just want to say "copy block", which is
> what y} just means. Before the guy even gets to the mouse, I'm done
> already with copying that 100-lines block of text.
I'm not disputing the time involved - but like I said, people are
generally predisposed to doing things the way they're used to.
Take Blender, for example - how many discussions in here about the
difficulty of using the interface have there been? Yet people who use it
seem to prefer the interface, and the push back is almost always "if you
take the time to learn it, you'll find it's much more efficient".
> Joe Sixpack can do that too, if only he learns the basics. There's no
> way otherwise with mouse-based solutions... plus, after you copy the
> text with the mouse, the cursor is left away from the original position.
> Not in vim.
>
>> Oh, I don't think so - he's quite adept with the tools he uses, both on
>> Windows and on Linux. Just because he doesn't do things the way you
>> and I do doesn't mean he's missing out - he might say the same about us
>> because we are "stuck in our old ways of doing things". ;-)
>
> Ok, kid, now just turn away before your uncle gets back. ;)
LOL
Jim
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On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:15:15 -0300, Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> True, but sometimes a bicycle is all you need, you don't need a 747 to
>> take you to the corner market. ;-)
>
> A coworker told me he once went to IBM to work for a project, and the
> other people there would start Rational Software Architect every time
> they had to change a line of a config file *sigh*
Gotta love it.
Jim
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nemesis wrote:
> Yeah, Professor Foo probably goes like: "Now type vi file and here are
> some basic commands for you. Have fun!" Surely wasn't a vi class and
> it just got in the way of the tasks. You surely had no time to learn it
> while you were fighting against it to get your assignments done...
That's exactly how it happened :)
> And I remember you're the guy who backed down from my text-copying
> challenge in this thread. ;)
... I think I missed something here. What challenge was that?
--
~Mike
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nemesis wrote:
> True, that excellent use for the batch tools. That's also not typical
> source code editing.
Not in your life, maybe. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!
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Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> What character sequence do you think the backspace key *should* send?
>
> See the link I posted?
Right. So, in other words, because emacs wants to use control-H for help
instead of backspace, you have to map the backspace key to a non-standard
escape sequence somewhere in the kernel of the OS, just in case you're
running emacs. Gee, thanks for that.
The backspace key *should* send ASCII backspace. But since Emacs broke that,
they decided to make it send something else, rather than fixing emacs.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!
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Mike Raiford escreveu:
> nemesis wrote:
>
>> Yeah, Professor Foo probably goes like: "Now type vi file and here
>> are some basic commands for you. Have fun!" Surely wasn't a vi class
>> and it just got in the way of the tasks. You surely had no time to
>> learn it while you were fighting against it to get your assignments
>> done...
>
> That's exactly how it happened :)
And poor vi has nothing to do with it, really. :)
>> And I remember you're the guy who backed down from my text-copying
>> challenge in this thread. ;)
>
> ... I think I missed something here. What challenge was that?
Copy a really big block of text with a mouse and then try y} on vim for
the same task. ;)
Here's another: open up some big source file, randomly place the cursor
somewhere inside, then search for the next call of the nearest function
being called (supposing it's not being called in the next line sure).
Copy the next block of text following the function call, then go back to
where you were and paste it. Pretty routine source code editing.
In vim it can be done in a automated way, barely looking at what's being
done: * j 0 y} 2Ctrl+o o Esc p
* over the function name to search for the next occurrence of name
j to go to next line
0 to go to beginning of line
y} to yank/copy the statements block following the call
2Ctrl-o to go back 2 times in the jump stack (search and copy add to it)
o to add a line below the line where you were in the first place
Esc to get out of insert mode
p to place the copy
It may sound completely alien, but is completely intuitive once you
learn the basics. Needless to say, I'd be done with it before the mouse
guy would still be positioning his cursor beyond the last statement to
copy and before using page-ups like mad to reach his original location
-- even if he was smart to bookmark it before... :P
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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Mike Raiford wrote:
> I've used VI for a semester in a college computer science course.
>
> I learned to hate it.
My hatred for it didn't require any learning.<G>
> BTW, where did the combinations Ctrl-Ins(Copy), Shift-Del(Cut) and
> Shift-Ins(Paste) come from? I remember them from the DOS text editors
> for QuickBASIC and such...
According to Wikipedia, those bindings were the standard from some IBM
systems. The ^C and ^V ones are actually from Apple.
--
"The security of the Enterprise is of Paramount importance.
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawaz org<<<<<<
anl
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Darren New escreveu:
> nemesis wrote:
>> True, that excellent use for the batch tools. That's also not typical
>> source code editing.
>
> Not in your life, maybe. :-)
Now, come on, man! Are you really saying you're one of those legendary
*nix real programmers writing code with cat, then editing with ed, sed
and awk pipes?
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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