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Darren New escreveu:
> Sure. Using C as an intermediate language for another language that's
> basically C-ish is probably a good idea.
Scheme is very unlike C, both obviously in syntax but also in semantics:
no low-level type declares, higher-order functions receiving or
returning functions, unlimited lexical scoping, unrestricted
higher-order continuations. Syntatic abstraction doesn't even come into
play for semantics as it's processed before being compiled to C.
Still, C is a very preferred target for Scheme fast code generators.
Many translation techniques have matured and proven very useful in using
C as intermediate language.
> I was merely arguing that the
> idea that "my language runs as fast as C code" is not obviously true
> from the fact that it uses C as an intermediate language. Using C as an
> intermediate language doesn't make it trivial to run as fast as
> hand-rolled C.
Not obvious, yes. It works by using C as assembly rather than as a
third generation high-level language as it once was. They use many
dirty tricks that no one using C to directly write programs in would
think of, like agressive loop unrolling and optimization and constant
folding before generating any C code. Much of the C "code" is actually
C preprocessor macros.
Yes, it will never be as fast as C obfuscated and cryptic code written
by hand by a hacker, but the point is not that: it is to write very
high level code that still performs quite favorably to low-level C as
assembly.
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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Warp wrote:
>>>>> Maybe you could say that. I was trying to make a point, using sarcasm.
> If it sounds like I'm mocking, it's completely unintentional.
BTW, you might want to look up the definition of "sarcasm". I'm not sure it
means what you think it means. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!
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Warp wrote:
> Invisible <voi### [at] dev null> wrote:
>> Mueen Nawaz wrote:
>
>>> ^u 10 ^f
>
>> Actually, I've often wondered what such things as ^M are supposed to mean.
>
> You have clearly never used any unix.
>
or DOS for that matter ..
--
~Mike
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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Warp wrote:
> >>>>> Maybe you could say that. I was trying to make a point, using sarcasm.
> > If it sounds like I'm mocking, it's completely unintentional.
> BTW, you might want to look up the definition of "sarcasm". I'm not sure it
> means what you think it means. :-)
"Harsh or bitter derision or irony."
--
- Warp
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 08:10:45 -0400, Warp wrote:
>
>> nemesis <nam### [at] nospam-gmailcom> wrote:
>>> Married geeks
>> Isn't that an oxymoron? ;)
>
> I'll ask my wife. ;-)
Maybe you shouldn't. It may end up in a divorce.<G>
--
"Now we all know map companies hire guys who specialize in making map
folding a physical impossibility" - Adult Kevin Arnold in "Wonder Years"
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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>>> My wife is terribly offended that you think she's not a geek.... ;-)
>> Which country is she from?
>
> The US, western Pennsylvania, to be precise. :-)
Mmm. I knew the US has a surprising amount of strange people, I guess
just taking into account the size of the place there must be some really
smart people there too...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Warp wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> Warp wrote:
>>>>>>> Maybe you could say that. I was trying to make a point, using sarcasm.
>
>>> If it sounds like I'm mocking, it's completely unintentional.
>
>> BTW, you might want to look up the definition of "sarcasm". I'm not sure it
>> means what you think it means. :-)
>
> "Harsh or bitter derision or irony."
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Asarcasm
Check out how many are mocking ridicule. :-)
Incidentally, I just installed "VIM with 'Cream' extensions" on my new work
machine, and it starts in insert mode and escape doesn't get you out of
insert mode, so I had no idea how to run the darn thing. I uninstalled it
and put up the normal vim. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!
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Darren New escreveu:
> Incidentally, I just installed "VIM with 'Cream' extensions" on my new
> work machine, and it starts in insert mode and escape doesn't get you
> out of insert mode, so I had no idea how to run the darn thing. I
> uninstalled it and put up the normal vim. :-)
a-ha!
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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nemesis wrote:
> Still, C is a very preferred target for Scheme fast code generators.
> Many translation techniques have matured and proven very useful in using
> C as intermediate language.
I've seen translators where the outputted C code is basically one function
per high-level source file, and the body of the function is full of gotos
and switches and all kinds of stuff like that. Again, completely unreadable,
but that isn't really the point. I've seen where it (for example) generates
C functions with >65536 labels in a file, breaking the compiler.
I would think if you want to optimize *that* sort of thing, you'd be better
off with a lower-level IM like JVM or CIL.
> Yes, it will never be as fast as C obfuscated and cryptic code written
> by hand by a hacker, but the point is not that: it is to write very
> high level code that still performs quite favorably to low-level C as
> assembly.
Sure. I guess taking advantage of the more complex chips these days can be
done much more easily by writing C code than by trying to generate good
assembly code. Perhaps I just haven't updated my prejudices since CPUs have
been simple enough to program by hand. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!
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On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 19:36:08 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>>> My wife is terribly offended that you think she's not a geek.... ;-)
>>> Which country is she from?
>>
>> The US, western Pennsylvania, to be precise. :-)
>
> Mmm. I knew the US has a surprising amount of strange people, I guess
> just taking into account the size of the place there must be some really
> smart people there too...
Indeed there are. I've told you before that it's not a good idea to
judge an entire country based on your limited experience in dealing with
people who work for the same company you do being based in the US.
You'll find we're a pretty diverse group, and some of us are even *gasp*
nice! :-)
Jim
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