On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 09:11:16 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> I also wonder about the people who use the closed-source video drivers -
> do they really keep working with new kernels and ABIs and all? Or does
> ATI release a new driver periodically? I honestly don't know, so I'm
> honestly asking.

I used to do regular updates of the closed source ATI kernel - but the 
newer OSS drivers work well enough for my uses, so I use those now.  I 
just did a kernel update on my HP system (which has an nVidia card in it) 
and it went completely smoothly.  I don't believe there was a new binary 
driver update for it as well.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:29:30 +0200, Eero Ahonen wrote:
> 
>> I'm not sure about CD-ROM, but at least Grub is able to boot via PXE.
> 
> Is it?  That's new...I've always used PXELinux...

Apparently, since it works on my media-player-PC, which has no HD
(moving parts makes noise).

> Jim


-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
   http://www.zbxt.net
      aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

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Darren New wrote:
> 
> That's a very good point.

Actually, that's the only point I can think of. I haven't yet seen any
other difference between Linux and Windowses on this matter.

> The webcam is the only one I can think of. (See
> http://kerneltrap.org/node/3729 not that it affected me personally)

Ah, I've missed that. I'd guess (yep, guess, ie. don't know, so don't
rely on it) that the modules (both parts) are still available from
somewhere and can be installed afterwards.

> (I resist the urge to be snarky and talk about losing hardware to new
> drivers.
> http://fixunix.com/linux/539688-linux-will-destroy-your-hardware.html
> Pretty funky story there.   ;-)

IIRC the e1000's actually weren't totally destroyed, even though they
did look like it at first sight, but they could be restored by
reflashing either theier original firmware or some interesting part
outside the chip (might be BIOS on some mark-vendor computers). But yes,
pretty funky story - and surely scares the hell out of people easily.

Somewhere around 1999 there was a virus released at internet, which
reflashed the BIOS (if possible) and therefore rendered the MoBo
unusable for most people.

> I also wonder about the people who use the closed-source video drivers -
> do they really keep working with new kernels and ABIs and all? Or does
> ATI release a new driver periodically? I honestly don't know, so I'm
> honestly asking.

That's a good point, too. I didn't even think about this, since I
haven't used them myself. I have so far used Matrox and Intel GPU's,
since - you know - They Just Work. I don't play much, though, so 3D
performance won't matter a lot to me.

> As well, going from 98 to an NT-based kernel killed a lot of software
> that bypassed the OS and (for example) frobbed the serial ports
> directly. 

Transport Tycoon Deluxe wasn't able to open serial ports for multiplayer
gaming on NT :/.

Now, OpenTTD supports TCP/IP... :)

> And I wouldn't bet that every video and sound card worked
> smoothly on every upgrade of OS, even from 2000 to XP. 

I think the worst fight I've had on this matter was installing SB16PnP
under NT4. It demanded some extra drivers for the PnP part, IIRC before
the card could have even be seen.

> One of the nice
> things about Matrox video cards is they (at least used to - haven't
> checked lately) would release drivers for new cards and old OSes, and
> for old cards and new OSes.

Another nice thing about them is that they give out what you ask them to
give out. My G400 on my media-player-PC is currently configured to
964x544, which is the native resolution of my projectors LCD-panel. OTOH
I'm slightly dissapointed, while I had to calculate the timeline for
X.org myself.

> I'm not sure about Vista 32-bit, but Vista 64-bit requires signed
> drivers that have passed MS's testing, because MS was tired of taking
> the flack for crappy drivers taking out the OS. If the HW vendor wanted
> you to buy a new card rather than keep the one you have, you're pretty
> SOL. :-)

Yep. Basically that's a good idea, but it does render bunch of old
hardware useless in the lack of drivers.

> Again, sure, your hardware may continue to be supported, but that's
> because the drivers are open-source. They don't "keep working" for new
> releases, they "get fixed" for new releases. If someone doesn't fix it,
> it won't work after they change the ABI again.

True.

> The closed-source nature of Windows drivers means there's a much smaller
> group of people who can fix drivers for the hardware, and they usually
> don't have too much incentive to do so.

True.

One more point is that the hw-manufacturers won't get any more money of
writing drivers for old hw on new os. The money is collected when the
new hw is sold - and on that time most buyers won't check the company
habits for this kind of things.

-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
   http://www.zbxt.net
      aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> (I resist the urge to be snarky and talk about losing hardware to new 
> drivers. 
> http://fixunix.com/linux/539688-linux-will-destroy-your-hardware.html
> Pretty funky story there.   ;-)

  Beta software has bugs. Shocking.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp wrote:
>   AFAIK Windows is the only OS out there for which each version has been
> slower than the previous version (even with all the eyecandy turned off).
> Clearly their priorities are not in efficiency.

There was some website claiming that about Ubuntu...

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On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:50:13 +0200, Eero Ahonen wrote:

> Apparently, since it works on my media-player-PC, which has no HD
> (moving parts makes noise).

I'll now have to look into that - PXELinux wasn't hard to set up, but 
using GRUB for that would be easier just from the perspective of one tool 
to learn how to use. :-)

Jim

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On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:50:13 +0200, Eero Ahonen wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:29:30 +0200, Eero Ahonen wrote:
>> 
>>> I'm not sure about CD-ROM, but at least Grub is able to boot via PXE.
>> 
>> Is it?  That's new...I've always used PXELinux...
> 
> Apparently, since it works on my media-player-PC, which has no HD
> (moving parts makes noise).

JUst a thought, does the device have a SSD drive in it?  Or does it run 
completely over the network?

Jim

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On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 21:41:25 -0200, Nicolas Alvarez wrote:

> Warp wrote:
>>   AFAIK Windows is the only OS out there for which each version has
>>   been
>> slower than the previous version (even with all the eyecandy turned
>> off). Clearly their priorities are not in efficiency.
> 
> There was some website claiming that about Ubuntu...

Yeah, I've read a few stories about the newest Ubuntu (8.10 IIRC) 
delivery that state that the benchmarks are slower than the previous 
version.

Jim

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On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 18:35:43 -0400, Warp wrote:

> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> (I resist the urge to be snarky and talk about losing hardware to new
>> drivers.
>> http://fixunix.com/linux/539688-linux-will-destroy-your-hardware.html
>> Pretty funky story there.   ;-)
> 
>   Beta software has bugs. Shocking.

And what's more, it didn't actually "destroy" the hardware, Intel was 
able to work out a fix for the corrupted firmware.

Jim

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
> > It's just hard to explain to someone who only uses the computer casually.
>
> For example, try to explain to someone who doesn't know the difference
> between a root account and a normal account why UAC is a good thing. :-)

The UAC in Vista is schizophrenic.  It's not simply sudo, it's shell-shocked
sudo on crack and will annoy you to no end.  I'm on an admin account, with UAC
/turned off/ (or at least as off as it can be) and it still annoys me from time
to time with stupidities like asking wether I'm sure I should let notepad show
me an html source...

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