And lo on Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:13:12 -0000, Mike Raiford  
<mra### [at] hotmailcom> did spake, saying:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>
>>  Pfft everyone knows where milk comes from - the fridge.
>>
>
> Euhmmm... nevermind. Fridge is an excellent answer.

Thank-you :-)

Real-life conversation from child to mother.

Child after looking in the fridge "There's no milk?"
"Yeah we've run out"
"Run-out?"
"Yes I need to get some more"
"Huh?"

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:07:55 -0500, Sabrina Kilian wrote:

>> Most of the people I know who have struggled (myself included) at some
>> point in their lives have had a fridge.  Many live in apartments, and
>> appliances tend to be included as part of the rent.
>> 
>> 
> My fridge came with the apartment. The freezer part is just big enough
> for a small roast and other frozen stuff like veggies and ice cream.

Should be enough room for a couple pounds of hamburger, though.

>> For a really interesting look at this, check out Morgan Spurlock's "30
>> Days" - in the first season, he and his wife lived on minimum wage for
>> a month just to see how difficult it was.
> 
> I skipped that, wasn't it on Fox for a while? Living below minimum wage
> myself, I know first hand what difference fast food makes on a budget. I
> am not advocating fast food, just that I understand why some people
> think it's a better option.

It was on FX on cable, as I recall.  I also understand why some people 
think it's a better option - 3 months of unemployment (= no income, not 
even unemployment cheques) taught me I was wrong.

>> It was difficult, but not impossible - and as they looked at their
>> budget, eating out even at McDonald's was too expensive.
>> 
> Completely agree. But, they had the foresight to do that planning and
> both the education and knowledge to look for all of that ahead of time.
> Some others don't.

This is true.  But it's also why it's important that that type of 
assistance be available to those on welfare (or in that type of 
situation).

> Right, if you catch it at the right time. That's why I made the point of
> a larger freezer. Personal observation time. I only buy what I can carry
> on a motorcycle or put in someone else's car when shopping with
> friends/family. That means that normally, I never have the opportunity
> to stock up the freezer with 25$ of what ever whole meat is on sale. My
> mother, on the other hand, has a car and a deep freeze. She stocks up on
> what ever is on sale, portions and labels it, and can keep it for a year
> or so till she decides to fix something. When we were discussing recipes
> one day she was amazed at the price I was willing to pay for something
> simple, like ground beef, and asked why I didn't buy it on sale. I
> showed her what was in the freezer, I had gone through the last batch of
> beef since it last had a good price. Her grocery bill for meats is
> substantially less then mine, just because of that.

All of that does make a difference, sure.

> When doing food budgets, I just can't rely on the sale price. I don't
> think anyone else in this case could either.

True, sale prices aren't something you can budget for (unless it's 
something that's always on sale).

> CostCo or the like would be nice, but in this area there just isn't one.
> There is a SamsClub an hour away, and a wallmart every couple of blocks
> it seems.

Also a factor.  I've been trying to convince my mom that that would be a 
good option for her after she moves, because she's on a very limited 
budget (just moving is going to be a huge expense for her - but in the 
long run better for her because she won't have to worry about maintenance 
and stuff like that - at her age, cutting the grass or shoveling the snow 
is a big deal).  I know she eats out far too much as well, so while we're 
back to visit we're going to show her a few recipes that she can make 
herself fairly quickly.  We've helped out with buying her some good 
kitchen equipment as well, as the stuff she was working with wasn't 
merely bad, but some of it was actually dangerous for her to continue 
using.

>> The cost "savings" received by eating the garbage at McDonald's (or any
>> fast food resturaunt) is offset by much larger medical expenses down
>> the road - sometimes sooner rather than later.
>> 
>> 
> To those below the welfare limit, sometimes someone else takes care of
> the health problems so that worry might not even be thought of.

I'm not just talking about the expense of going into the ER or to see a 
doctor, but also lost wages due to being too ill to go to work.

In the 30 Days episode I referenced, Spurlock's wife came down with a 
urinary tract infection.  They had to deal with it within the confines of 
their budget, and the medications burned through a lot of the money.

> I had, for quite a while, refused to even enter a wallmart, just on
> principle. I was convinced once to compare my grocery bill by shopping
> there, someone was convinced that 'everything was cheaper, it'll help
> you save a bit.' So I did. Normal grocery shopping, bread, milk, soda,
> cereal and other sundris. Came out 10$ more expensive. Some stuff looks
> cheaper, but they nickel and dime the little things like cheap bread and
> milk. I'm back to refusing to shop there.

Yep, and that's another of the big fallacies of Wallmart - that it is 
cheaper to shop there.  I drive past about 4 of them on my way into the 
office twice a week (a 45 mile drive one-way), and it boggles my mind 
that people shop there regularly because the prices aren't as great as 
they sound and the way they treat their employees contributes to the 
problem.

When we got our CostCo membership, it was after looking into the company 
a bit; the CEO's pay is capped based on the lowest-paid employee's wages 
(it's a factor of the lowest paid employee's); he gets the exact same 
benefits as all the other employees - no stock options/grants or any 
nonsense like that.

I'm very impressed with how they manage to keep prices low while treating 
their employees like human beings.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:07:55 -0500, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> 
>>> Most of the people I know who have struggled (myself included) at some
>>> point in their lives have had a fridge.  Many live in apartments, and
>>> appliances tend to be included as part of the rent.
>>>
>>>
>> My fridge came with the apartment. The freezer part is just big enough
>> for a small roast and other frozen stuff like veggies and ice cream.
> 
> Should be enough room for a couple pounds of hamburger, though.

Barely. I think three small chickens might fit, there is one and some
other stuff there now. The problem might be me, I keep frozen veggies
and fruit for cooking with. Leave those out and there would be room for
a small cow (kidding). But that would result in other dietary issues.
> 
>>> For a really interesting look at this, check out Morgan Spurlock's "30
>>> Days" - in the first season, he and his wife lived on minimum wage for
>>> a month just to see how difficult it was.
>> I skipped that, wasn't it on Fox for a while? Living below minimum wage
>> myself, I know first hand what difference fast food makes on a budget. I
>> am not advocating fast food, just that I understand why some people
>> think it's a better option.
> 
> It was on FX on cable, as I recall.

That explains it. I didn't get FX till recently.

>  I also understand why some people 
> think it's a better option - 3 months of unemployment (= no income, not 
> even unemployment cheques) taught me I was wrong.
> 
>>> It was difficult, but not impossible - and as they looked at their
>>> budget, eating out even at McDonald's was too expensive.
>>>
>> Completely agree. But, they had the foresight to do that planning and
>> both the education and knowledge to look for all of that ahead of time.
>> Some others don't.
> 
> This is true.  But it's also why it's important that that type of 
> assistance be available to those on welfare (or in that type of 
> situation).
> 

Yup, I think we agree and are just coming from different angles. It can
be hard enough, here, even getting people who need welfare to apply for
it. Getting them to sign up for a class to do something like 'teach them
to shop and plan ahead' would be akin to pulling teeth.

>> CostCo or the like would be nice, but in this area there just isn't one.
>> There is a SamsClub an hour away, and a wallmart every couple of blocks
>> it seems.
> 
> Also a factor.  I've been trying to convince my mom that that would be a 
> good option for her after she moves, because she's on a very limited 
> budget (just moving is going to be a huge expense for her - but in the 
> long run better for her because she won't have to worry about maintenance 
> and stuff like that - at her age, cutting the grass or shoveling the snow 
> is a big deal).  I know she eats out far too much as well, so while we're 
> back to visit we're going to show her a few recipes that she can make 
> herself fairly quickly.  We've helped out with buying her some good 
> kitchen equipment as well, as the stuff she was working with wasn't 
> merely bad, but some of it was actually dangerous for her to continue 
> using.
> 

If I just had kids to help me fix up my kitchen. . . Wait, what am I saying!

>>> The cost "savings" received by eating the garbage at McDonald's (or any
>>> fast food resturaunt) is offset by much larger medical expenses down
>>> the road - sometimes sooner rather than later.
>>>
>>>
>> To those below the welfare limit, sometimes someone else takes care of
>> the health problems so that worry might not even be thought of.
> 
> I'm not just talking about the expense of going into the ER or to see a 
> doctor, but also lost wages due to being too ill to go to work.
> 
> In the 30 Days episode I referenced, Spurlock's wife came down with a 
> urinary tract infection.  They had to deal with it within the confines of 
> their budget, and the medications burned through a lot of the money.
> 

Here, SmallTown Virginia USA, families living below welfare line can
often get medical coverage for their kids and sometimes for the parents
as well. I've never met a small child that didn't have some sort of
chronic illness, ear infection or cough or sore throats, that they
couldn't get through a state medical assistance form.

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