Jim Henderson wrote:
> Total cost:  $1.11 + $0.35 + $0.25 = $1.71 per meal.
> 
> IIRC, a quarter pounder with cheese meal costs around $4 around here.  
> (It's been about 10 years since I ate at a McDonald's).
> 
> There are additional costs to making it yourself, of course - you've got 
> to have equipment, for starters.  Time is also a factor to consider.
> 
> But I'll take the cheaper homemade burger any day over the trash served 
> at McDonald's.
> 
> Jim

There are other up front costs that you missed, that would prevent a
family just teetering on the edge of money problems would not be able to
afford. Cookware is one, storage of the food is probably a bigger one.

Let's say the family actually eat like most people I know, they can
stand the same food for a day or two, but a week of hamburgers would get
on their nerves. Where do they store 5lbs of beef? If they take
advantage of good prices, they need to store the groceries some place.
They need a freezer to store all of that in, and the small fridges they
probably had before kids just won't cut it for storing enough food for a
family of 4 or 5. The obvious cost of a new fridge or a separate deep
freeze, along with the electrical costs, outweigh the hidden savings of
fast food.

Add to that the cost of cookware. I know families who get by with less
cookware then I would have believed possible. 1 or 2 fry pans, a small
pot and a slighter bigger one. To fix burgers like this, they need a
meat grinder at least. How many meals till it breaks even for them? If
they consider eating out at McD as a special once in a while event, how
many weeks or months would it take for them to recoup that cost? Add to
that the cost of a CostCo membership*, and freezer to store bulk food in.

*guessing here. There isn't a CostCo around here. I've heard they are a
membership type store, like SamsClub. The local grocery store charges
more then 3$ lbs for decent beef, Wal-mart charges less but I've never
seen anything there that looked eatable.

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:09:11 -0500, Sabrina Kilian wrote:

> There are other up front costs that you missed, that would prevent a
> family just teetering on the edge of money problems would not be able to
> afford. Cookware is one, storage of the food is probably a bigger one.

One of my best friends (and former boss once upon a time) for a long time 
wasn't able to afford housing - the only way he had a place to live was 
because he took a position as a caretaker at an apartment complex - in 
addition to a job working fast food.

He's *finally* gotten out of that situation now, still working at the 
apartment, but now working jewelry retail (and doing fairly well at it, 
from what I have heard).

Cookware and food storage were a problem for a while, but there's plenty 
of ways which that can be overcome; you don't need all-clad cookware to 
prepare home-cooked meals.  Sure, it's nice, and it's shiny, and the 
stuff lasts forever if you take care of it (we've got some here).  But 
you can purchase a simple frying pan for under $5 that'll last you a 
while.

> Let's say the family actually eat like most people I know, they can
> stand the same food for a day or two, but a week of hamburgers would get
> on their nerves. Where do they store 5lbs of beef? If they take
> advantage of good prices, they need to store the groceries some place.
> They need a freezer to store all of that in, and the small fridges they
> probably had before kids just won't cut it for storing enough food for a
> family of 4 or 5. The obvious cost of a new fridge or a separate deep
> freeze, along with the electrical costs, outweigh the hidden savings of
> fast food.

Most of the people I know who have struggled (myself included) at some 
point in their lives have had a fridge.  Many live in apartments, and 
appliances tend to be included as part of the rent.

For a really interesting look at this, check out Morgan Spurlock's "30 
Days" - in the first season, he and his wife lived on minimum wage for a 
month just to see how difficult it was.

It was difficult, but not impossible - and as they looked at their 
budget, eating out even at McDonald's was too expensive.

> Add to that the cost of cookware. I know families who get by with less
> cookware then I would have believed possible. 1 or 2 fry pans, a small
> pot and a slighter bigger one. To fix burgers like this, they need a
> meat grinder at least. How many meals till it breaks even for them? If
> they consider eating out at McD as a special once in a while event, how
> many weeks or months would it take for them to recoup that cost? 

So they buy pre-ground beef instead of grinding it themselves.  It adds a 
little to the cost, but if you don't have the equipment, over time, it 
still will work out better.  Even if they buy a single pound of beef and 
work with that.

> Add to
> that the cost of a CostCo membership*, and freezer to store bulk food
> in.

Yes, Costco membership is a $50 cost minimum; I used that as an example, 
but you can get similar deals at the local grocery store (not as low of 
prices, but sometimes close if you catch things at the right time).  Buy 
in bulk with friends (I know some families who have done that in the 
past).

The cost "savings" received by eating the garbage at McDonald's (or any 
fast food resturaunt) is offset by much larger medical expenses down the 
road - sometimes sooner rather than later.

> *guessing here. There isn't a CostCo around here. I've heard they are a
> membership type store, like SamsClub. The local grocery store charges
> more then 3$ lbs for decent beef, Wal-mart charges less but I've never
> seen anything there that looked eatable.

I wouldn't shop at Wallmart if it was the last place on the planet to buy 
stuff.  Or Sams Club, for that matter.  They're part of the problem, not 
the solution - if anyone thinks different, try talking to some of the 
underpaid employees sometime.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:09:11 -0500, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
 >> Let's say the family actually eat like most people I know, they can
>> stand the same food for a day or two, but a week of hamburgers would get
>> on their nerves. Where do they store 5lbs of beef? If they take
>> advantage of good prices, they need to store the groceries some place.
>> They need a freezer to store all of that in, and the small fridges they
>> probably had before kids just won't cut it for storing enough food for a
>> family of 4 or 5. The obvious cost of a new fridge or a separate deep
>> freeze, along with the electrical costs, outweigh the hidden savings of
>> fast food.
> 
> Most of the people I know who have struggled (myself included) at some 
> point in their lives have had a fridge.  Many live in apartments, and 
> appliances tend to be included as part of the rent.
> 

My fridge came with the apartment. The freezer part is just big enough
for a small roast and other frozen stuff like veggies and ice cream.

> For a really interesting look at this, check out Morgan Spurlock's "30 
> Days" - in the first season, he and his wife lived on minimum wage for a 
> month just to see how difficult it was.

I skipped that, wasn't it on Fox for a while? Living below minimum wage
myself, I know first hand what difference fast food makes on a budget. I
am not advocating fast food, just that I understand why some people
think it's a better option.

> 
> It was difficult, but not impossible - and as they looked at their 
> budget, eating out even at McDonald's was too expensive.
> 
Completely agree. But, they had the foresight to do that planning and
both the education and knowledge to look for all of that ahead of time.
Some others don't.

>> Add to
>> that the cost of a CostCo membership*, and freezer to store bulk food
>> in.
> 
> Yes, Costco membership is a $50 cost minimum; I used that as an example, 
> but you can get similar deals at the local grocery store (not as low of 
> prices, but sometimes close if you catch things at the right time).  Buy 
> in bulk with friends (I know some families who have done that in the 
> past).
> 

Right, if you catch it at the right time. That's why I made the point of
a larger freezer. Personal observation time. I only buy what I can carry
on a motorcycle or put in someone else's car when shopping with
friends/family. That means that normally, I never have the opportunity
to stock up the freezer with 25$ of what ever whole meat is on sale. My
mother, on the other hand, has a car and a deep freeze. She stocks up on
what ever is on sale, portions and labels it, and can keep it for a year
or so till she decides to fix something. When we were discussing recipes
one day she was amazed at the price I was willing to pay for something
simple, like ground beef, and asked why I didn't buy it on sale. I
showed her what was in the freezer, I had gone through the last batch of
beef since it last had a good price. Her grocery bill for meats is
substantially less then mine, just because of that.

When doing food budgets, I just can't rely on the sale price. I don't
think anyone else in this case could either.

CostCo or the like would be nice, but in this area there just isn't one.
There is a SamsClub an hour away, and a wallmart every couple of blocks
it seems.

> The cost "savings" received by eating the garbage at McDonald's (or any 
> fast food resturaunt) is offset by much larger medical expenses down the 
> road - sometimes sooner rather than later.
> 

To those below the welfare limit, sometimes someone else takes care of
the health problems so that worry might not even be thought of.

>> *guessing here. There isn't a CostCo around here. I've heard they are a
>> membership type store, like SamsClub. The local grocery store charges
>> more then 3$ lbs for decent beef, Wal-mart charges less but I've never
>> seen anything there that looked eatable.
> 
> I wouldn't shop at Wallmart if it was the last place on the planet to buy 
> stuff.  Or Sams Club, for that matter.  They're part of the problem, not 
> the solution - if anyone thinks different, try talking to some of the 
> underpaid employees sometime.
> 
> Jim

I had, for quite a while, refused to even enter a wallmart, just on
principle. I was convinced once to compare my grocery bill by shopping
there, someone was convinced that 'everything was cheaper, it'll help
you save a bit.' So I did. Normal grocery shopping, bread, milk, soda,
cereal and other sundris. Came out 10$ more expensive. Some stuff looks
cheaper, but they nickel and dime the little things like cheap bread and
milk. I'm back to refusing to shop there.

Post a reply to this message

And lo on Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:21:27 -0000, Ross <rli### [at] speakeasynet>  
did spake, saying:

> "scott" <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote in message
> news:475f9dc1$1@news.povray.org...
>>> Time is also a factor to consider.
>>
>> I think this is the key point, also laziness.  Why spend all the effort
>> shopping and making stuff, when for a couple of $ more you can get it  
>> all
>> done for you?  I suspect for most people the extra expense for a
>> ready-made burger is less than what they could earn in the time it takes
>> to buy ingredients and prepare.
>>
>> Buying in bulk and doing it yourself is all very well, but unless you  
>> plan
>> to eat burgers every night your ingredients are going to go bad pretty
>> soon, then the cost benefit is wiped out.  Don't forget you have all the
>> other stuff in the burger, like salad, sauces, cheese etc.
>>
>>
>
> But does any part of going to McD's outweight the family bonding  
> experience of making a meal?

Perhaps the social bonding experience when most of your neighbourhood  
treat McD's as the default family dinner location?

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

Post a reply to this message

"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote in message 
news:op.t298wewoc3xi7v@news.povray.org...
> And lo on Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:21:27 -0000, Ross <rli### [at] speakeasynet> 
> did spake, saying:
>
>> "scott" <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote in message
>> news:475f9dc1$1@news.povray.org...
>>>> Time is also a factor to consider.
>>>
>>> I think this is the key point, also laziness.  Why spend all the effort
>>> shopping and making stuff, when for a couple of $ more you can get it 
>>> all
>>> done for you?  I suspect for most people the extra expense for a
>>> ready-made burger is less than what they could earn in the time it takes
>>> to buy ingredients and prepare.
>>>
>>> Buying in bulk and doing it yourself is all very well, but unless you 
>>> plan
>>> to eat burgers every night your ingredients are going to go bad pretty
>>> soon, then the cost benefit is wiped out.  Don't forget you have all the
>>> other stuff in the burger, like salad, sauces, cheese etc.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> But does any part of going to McD's outweight the family bonding 
>> experience of making a meal?
>
> Perhaps the social bonding experience when most of your neighbourhood 
> treat McD's as the default family dinner location?
>

Interesting, but are these the kids who don't know where milk comes from?

Post a reply to this message

And lo on Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:58:51 -0000, Ross <rli### [at] speakeasynet>  
did spake, saying:

> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote in message
> news:op.t298wewoc3xi7v@news.povray.org...
>> And lo on Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:21:27 -0000, Ross  
>> <rli### [at] speakeasynet>
>> did spake, saying:
>>> But does any part of going to McD's outweight the family bonding
>>> experience of making a meal?
>>
>> Perhaps the social bonding experience when most of your neighbourhood
>> treat McD's as the default family dinner location?
>>
>
> Interesting, but are these the kids who don't know where milk comes from?

Pfft everyone knows where milk comes from - the fridge.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

Post a reply to this message

Phil Cook wrote:

> 
> Pfft everyone knows where milk comes from - the fridge.
> 

Euhmmm... nevermind. Fridge is an excellent answer.

Post a reply to this message

And lo on Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:13:12 -0000, Mike Raiford  
<mra### [at] hotmailcom> did spake, saying:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>
>>  Pfft everyone knows where milk comes from - the fridge.
>>
>
> Euhmmm... nevermind. Fridge is an excellent answer.

Thank-you :-)

Real-life conversation from child to mother.

Child after looking in the fridge "There's no milk?"
"Yeah we've run out"
"Run-out?"
"Yes I need to get some more"
"Huh?"

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:07:55 -0500, Sabrina Kilian wrote:

>> Most of the people I know who have struggled (myself included) at some
>> point in their lives have had a fridge.  Many live in apartments, and
>> appliances tend to be included as part of the rent.
>> 
>> 
> My fridge came with the apartment. The freezer part is just big enough
> for a small roast and other frozen stuff like veggies and ice cream.

Should be enough room for a couple pounds of hamburger, though.

>> For a really interesting look at this, check out Morgan Spurlock's "30
>> Days" - in the first season, he and his wife lived on minimum wage for
>> a month just to see how difficult it was.
> 
> I skipped that, wasn't it on Fox for a while? Living below minimum wage
> myself, I know first hand what difference fast food makes on a budget. I
> am not advocating fast food, just that I understand why some people
> think it's a better option.

It was on FX on cable, as I recall.  I also understand why some people 
think it's a better option - 3 months of unemployment (= no income, not 
even unemployment cheques) taught me I was wrong.

>> It was difficult, but not impossible - and as they looked at their
>> budget, eating out even at McDonald's was too expensive.
>> 
> Completely agree. But, they had the foresight to do that planning and
> both the education and knowledge to look for all of that ahead of time.
> Some others don't.

This is true.  But it's also why it's important that that type of 
assistance be available to those on welfare (or in that type of 
situation).

> Right, if you catch it at the right time. That's why I made the point of
> a larger freezer. Personal observation time. I only buy what I can carry
> on a motorcycle or put in someone else's car when shopping with
> friends/family. That means that normally, I never have the opportunity
> to stock up the freezer with 25$ of what ever whole meat is on sale. My
> mother, on the other hand, has a car and a deep freeze. She stocks up on
> what ever is on sale, portions and labels it, and can keep it for a year
> or so till she decides to fix something. When we were discussing recipes
> one day she was amazed at the price I was willing to pay for something
> simple, like ground beef, and asked why I didn't buy it on sale. I
> showed her what was in the freezer, I had gone through the last batch of
> beef since it last had a good price. Her grocery bill for meats is
> substantially less then mine, just because of that.

All of that does make a difference, sure.

> When doing food budgets, I just can't rely on the sale price. I don't
> think anyone else in this case could either.

True, sale prices aren't something you can budget for (unless it's 
something that's always on sale).

> CostCo or the like would be nice, but in this area there just isn't one.
> There is a SamsClub an hour away, and a wallmart every couple of blocks
> it seems.

Also a factor.  I've been trying to convince my mom that that would be a 
good option for her after she moves, because she's on a very limited 
budget (just moving is going to be a huge expense for her - but in the 
long run better for her because she won't have to worry about maintenance 
and stuff like that - at her age, cutting the grass or shoveling the snow 
is a big deal).  I know she eats out far too much as well, so while we're 
back to visit we're going to show her a few recipes that she can make 
herself fairly quickly.  We've helped out with buying her some good 
kitchen equipment as well, as the stuff she was working with wasn't 
merely bad, but some of it was actually dangerous for her to continue 
using.

>> The cost "savings" received by eating the garbage at McDonald's (or any
>> fast food resturaunt) is offset by much larger medical expenses down
>> the road - sometimes sooner rather than later.
>> 
>> 
> To those below the welfare limit, sometimes someone else takes care of
> the health problems so that worry might not even be thought of.

I'm not just talking about the expense of going into the ER or to see a 
doctor, but also lost wages due to being too ill to go to work.

In the 30 Days episode I referenced, Spurlock's wife came down with a 
urinary tract infection.  They had to deal with it within the confines of 
their budget, and the medications burned through a lot of the money.

> I had, for quite a while, refused to even enter a wallmart, just on
> principle. I was convinced once to compare my grocery bill by shopping
> there, someone was convinced that 'everything was cheaper, it'll help
> you save a bit.' So I did. Normal grocery shopping, bread, milk, soda,
> cereal and other sundris. Came out 10$ more expensive. Some stuff looks
> cheaper, but they nickel and dime the little things like cheap bread and
> milk. I'm back to refusing to shop there.

Yep, and that's another of the big fallacies of Wallmart - that it is 
cheaper to shop there.  I drive past about 4 of them on my way into the 
office twice a week (a 45 mile drive one-way), and it boggles my mind 
that people shop there regularly because the prices aren't as great as 
they sound and the way they treat their employees contributes to the 
problem.

When we got our CostCo membership, it was after looking into the company 
a bit; the CEO's pay is capped based on the lowest-paid employee's wages 
(it's a factor of the lowest paid employee's); he gets the exact same 
benefits as all the other employees - no stock options/grants or any 
nonsense like that.

I'm very impressed with how they manage to keep prices low while treating 
their employees like human beings.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:07:55 -0500, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> 
>>> Most of the people I know who have struggled (myself included) at some
>>> point in their lives have had a fridge.  Many live in apartments, and
>>> appliances tend to be included as part of the rent.
>>>
>>>
>> My fridge came with the apartment. The freezer part is just big enough
>> for a small roast and other frozen stuff like veggies and ice cream.
> 
> Should be enough room for a couple pounds of hamburger, though.

Barely. I think three small chickens might fit, there is one and some
other stuff there now. The problem might be me, I keep frozen veggies
and fruit for cooking with. Leave those out and there would be room for
a small cow (kidding). But that would result in other dietary issues.
> 
>>> For a really interesting look at this, check out Morgan Spurlock's "30
>>> Days" - in the first season, he and his wife lived on minimum wage for
>>> a month just to see how difficult it was.
>> I skipped that, wasn't it on Fox for a while? Living below minimum wage
>> myself, I know first hand what difference fast food makes on a budget. I
>> am not advocating fast food, just that I understand why some people
>> think it's a better option.
> 
> It was on FX on cable, as I recall.

That explains it. I didn't get FX till recently.

>  I also understand why some people 
> think it's a better option - 3 months of unemployment (= no income, not 
> even unemployment cheques) taught me I was wrong.
> 
>>> It was difficult, but not impossible - and as they looked at their
>>> budget, eating out even at McDonald's was too expensive.
>>>
>> Completely agree. But, they had the foresight to do that planning and
>> both the education and knowledge to look for all of that ahead of time.
>> Some others don't.
> 
> This is true.  But it's also why it's important that that type of 
> assistance be available to those on welfare (or in that type of 
> situation).
> 

Yup, I think we agree and are just coming from different angles. It can
be hard enough, here, even getting people who need welfare to apply for
it. Getting them to sign up for a class to do something like 'teach them
to shop and plan ahead' would be akin to pulling teeth.

>> CostCo or the like would be nice, but in this area there just isn't one.
>> There is a SamsClub an hour away, and a wallmart every couple of blocks
>> it seems.
> 
> Also a factor.  I've been trying to convince my mom that that would be a 
> good option for her after she moves, because she's on a very limited 
> budget (just moving is going to be a huge expense for her - but in the 
> long run better for her because she won't have to worry about maintenance 
> and stuff like that - at her age, cutting the grass or shoveling the snow 
> is a big deal).  I know she eats out far too much as well, so while we're 
> back to visit we're going to show her a few recipes that she can make 
> herself fairly quickly.  We've helped out with buying her some good 
> kitchen equipment as well, as the stuff she was working with wasn't 
> merely bad, but some of it was actually dangerous for her to continue 
> using.
> 

If I just had kids to help me fix up my kitchen. . . Wait, what am I saying!

>>> The cost "savings" received by eating the garbage at McDonald's (or any
>>> fast food resturaunt) is offset by much larger medical expenses down
>>> the road - sometimes sooner rather than later.
>>>
>>>
>> To those below the welfare limit, sometimes someone else takes care of
>> the health problems so that worry might not even be thought of.
> 
> I'm not just talking about the expense of going into the ER or to see a 
> doctor, but also lost wages due to being too ill to go to work.
> 
> In the 30 Days episode I referenced, Spurlock's wife came down with a 
> urinary tract infection.  They had to deal with it within the confines of 
> their budget, and the medications burned through a lot of the money.
> 

Here, SmallTown Virginia USA, families living below welfare line can
often get medical coverage for their kids and sometimes for the parents
as well. I've never met a small child that didn't have some sort of
chronic illness, ear infection or cough or sore throats, that they
couldn't get through a state medical assistance form.

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