"scott" <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote in message 
news:475f9dc1$1@news.povray.org...
>> Time is also a factor to consider.
>
> I think this is the key point, also laziness.  Why spend all the effort 
> shopping and making stuff, when for a couple of $ more you can get it all 
> done for you?  I suspect for most people the extra expense for a 
> ready-made burger is less than what they could earn in the time it takes 
> to buy ingredients and prepare.
>
> Buying in bulk and doing it yourself is all very well, but unless you plan 
> to eat burgers every night your ingredients are going to go bad pretty 
> soon, then the cost benefit is wiped out.  Don't forget you have all the 
> other stuff in the burger, like salad, sauces, cheese etc.
>
>

But does any part of going to McD's outweight the family bonding experience 
of making a meal?

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On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 13:03:43 +0100, scott wrote:

> I think they would be in a severe amount of trouble if what they were
> actually selling wasn't what they were advertising...  Whether you think
> it tastes like beef or not I guess is another matter ;-)

My wife's brother-in-law's daughter once made a comment about being a 
vegetarian - said that McDonald's hamburgers were something she couldn't 
eat, but that the cheeseburgers were.

Some people have a very strange idea of what it is to be a vegetarian...

Jim

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scott wrote:
>> Don't forget that a quarter-pounder in McDonald's most definitely does
>> not contain a quarter-pound of meat, even before cooking,
> 
> From:
> 
> http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/resources/img/sections/eatsmart/Nutrition.pdf
> 
> "Quarter Pounder* with Cheese
> Beef
> 100% Pure Beef. No additives, fillers, binders,
> preservatives or flavour enhancers. Just pure
> forequarter and flank. A little salt and pepper is
> added to season after cooking. (*113.4 grams
> approx. pre-cooked weight)."
> 

'Pure Beef' is a brand name, I bet.

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> Total cost:  $1.11 + $0.35 + $0.25 = $1.71 per meal.
> 
> IIRC, a quarter pounder with cheese meal costs around $4 around here.  
> (It's been about 10 years since I ate at a McDonald's).
> 
> There are additional costs to making it yourself, of course - you've got 
> to have equipment, for starters.  Time is also a factor to consider.
> 
> But I'll take the cheaper homemade burger any day over the trash served 
> at McDonald's.
> 
> Jim

There are other up front costs that you missed, that would prevent a
family just teetering on the edge of money problems would not be able to
afford. Cookware is one, storage of the food is probably a bigger one.

Let's say the family actually eat like most people I know, they can
stand the same food for a day or two, but a week of hamburgers would get
on their nerves. Where do they store 5lbs of beef? If they take
advantage of good prices, they need to store the groceries some place.
They need a freezer to store all of that in, and the small fridges they
probably had before kids just won't cut it for storing enough food for a
family of 4 or 5. The obvious cost of a new fridge or a separate deep
freeze, along with the electrical costs, outweigh the hidden savings of
fast food.

Add to that the cost of cookware. I know families who get by with less
cookware then I would have believed possible. 1 or 2 fry pans, a small
pot and a slighter bigger one. To fix burgers like this, they need a
meat grinder at least. How many meals till it breaks even for them? If
they consider eating out at McD as a special once in a while event, how
many weeks or months would it take for them to recoup that cost? Add to
that the cost of a CostCo membership*, and freezer to store bulk food in.

*guessing here. There isn't a CostCo around here. I've heard they are a
membership type store, like SamsClub. The local grocery store charges
more then 3$ lbs for decent beef, Wal-mart charges less but I've never
seen anything there that looked eatable.

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On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:09:11 -0500, Sabrina Kilian wrote:

> There are other up front costs that you missed, that would prevent a
> family just teetering on the edge of money problems would not be able to
> afford. Cookware is one, storage of the food is probably a bigger one.

One of my best friends (and former boss once upon a time) for a long time 
wasn't able to afford housing - the only way he had a place to live was 
because he took a position as a caretaker at an apartment complex - in 
addition to a job working fast food.

He's *finally* gotten out of that situation now, still working at the 
apartment, but now working jewelry retail (and doing fairly well at it, 
from what I have heard).

Cookware and food storage were a problem for a while, but there's plenty 
of ways which that can be overcome; you don't need all-clad cookware to 
prepare home-cooked meals.  Sure, it's nice, and it's shiny, and the 
stuff lasts forever if you take care of it (we've got some here).  But 
you can purchase a simple frying pan for under $5 that'll last you a 
while.

> Let's say the family actually eat like most people I know, they can
> stand the same food for a day or two, but a week of hamburgers would get
> on their nerves. Where do they store 5lbs of beef? If they take
> advantage of good prices, they need to store the groceries some place.
> They need a freezer to store all of that in, and the small fridges they
> probably had before kids just won't cut it for storing enough food for a
> family of 4 or 5. The obvious cost of a new fridge or a separate deep
> freeze, along with the electrical costs, outweigh the hidden savings of
> fast food.

Most of the people I know who have struggled (myself included) at some 
point in their lives have had a fridge.  Many live in apartments, and 
appliances tend to be included as part of the rent.

For a really interesting look at this, check out Morgan Spurlock's "30 
Days" - in the first season, he and his wife lived on minimum wage for a 
month just to see how difficult it was.

It was difficult, but not impossible - and as they looked at their 
budget, eating out even at McDonald's was too expensive.

> Add to that the cost of cookware. I know families who get by with less
> cookware then I would have believed possible. 1 or 2 fry pans, a small
> pot and a slighter bigger one. To fix burgers like this, they need a
> meat grinder at least. How many meals till it breaks even for them? If
> they consider eating out at McD as a special once in a while event, how
> many weeks or months would it take for them to recoup that cost? 

So they buy pre-ground beef instead of grinding it themselves.  It adds a 
little to the cost, but if you don't have the equipment, over time, it 
still will work out better.  Even if they buy a single pound of beef and 
work with that.

> Add to
> that the cost of a CostCo membership*, and freezer to store bulk food
> in.

Yes, Costco membership is a $50 cost minimum; I used that as an example, 
but you can get similar deals at the local grocery store (not as low of 
prices, but sometimes close if you catch things at the right time).  Buy 
in bulk with friends (I know some families who have done that in the 
past).

The cost "savings" received by eating the garbage at McDonald's (or any 
fast food resturaunt) is offset by much larger medical expenses down the 
road - sometimes sooner rather than later.

> *guessing here. There isn't a CostCo around here. I've heard they are a
> membership type store, like SamsClub. The local grocery store charges
> more then 3$ lbs for decent beef, Wal-mart charges less but I've never
> seen anything there that looked eatable.

I wouldn't shop at Wallmart if it was the last place on the planet to buy 
stuff.  Or Sams Club, for that matter.  They're part of the problem, not 
the solution - if anyone thinks different, try talking to some of the 
underpaid employees sometime.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:09:11 -0500, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
 >> Let's say the family actually eat like most people I know, they can
>> stand the same food for a day or two, but a week of hamburgers would get
>> on their nerves. Where do they store 5lbs of beef? If they take
>> advantage of good prices, they need to store the groceries some place.
>> They need a freezer to store all of that in, and the small fridges they
>> probably had before kids just won't cut it for storing enough food for a
>> family of 4 or 5. The obvious cost of a new fridge or a separate deep
>> freeze, along with the electrical costs, outweigh the hidden savings of
>> fast food.
> 
> Most of the people I know who have struggled (myself included) at some 
> point in their lives have had a fridge.  Many live in apartments, and 
> appliances tend to be included as part of the rent.
> 

My fridge came with the apartment. The freezer part is just big enough
for a small roast and other frozen stuff like veggies and ice cream.

> For a really interesting look at this, check out Morgan Spurlock's "30 
> Days" - in the first season, he and his wife lived on minimum wage for a 
> month just to see how difficult it was.

I skipped that, wasn't it on Fox for a while? Living below minimum wage
myself, I know first hand what difference fast food makes on a budget. I
am not advocating fast food, just that I understand why some people
think it's a better option.

> 
> It was difficult, but not impossible - and as they looked at their 
> budget, eating out even at McDonald's was too expensive.
> 
Completely agree. But, they had the foresight to do that planning and
both the education and knowledge to look for all of that ahead of time.
Some others don't.

>> Add to
>> that the cost of a CostCo membership*, and freezer to store bulk food
>> in.
> 
> Yes, Costco membership is a $50 cost minimum; I used that as an example, 
> but you can get similar deals at the local grocery store (not as low of 
> prices, but sometimes close if you catch things at the right time).  Buy 
> in bulk with friends (I know some families who have done that in the 
> past).
> 

Right, if you catch it at the right time. That's why I made the point of
a larger freezer. Personal observation time. I only buy what I can carry
on a motorcycle or put in someone else's car when shopping with
friends/family. That means that normally, I never have the opportunity
to stock up the freezer with 25$ of what ever whole meat is on sale. My
mother, on the other hand, has a car and a deep freeze. She stocks up on
what ever is on sale, portions and labels it, and can keep it for a year
or so till she decides to fix something. When we were discussing recipes
one day she was amazed at the price I was willing to pay for something
simple, like ground beef, and asked why I didn't buy it on sale. I
showed her what was in the freezer, I had gone through the last batch of
beef since it last had a good price. Her grocery bill for meats is
substantially less then mine, just because of that.

When doing food budgets, I just can't rely on the sale price. I don't
think anyone else in this case could either.

CostCo or the like would be nice, but in this area there just isn't one.
There is a SamsClub an hour away, and a wallmart every couple of blocks
it seems.

> The cost "savings" received by eating the garbage at McDonald's (or any 
> fast food resturaunt) is offset by much larger medical expenses down the 
> road - sometimes sooner rather than later.
> 

To those below the welfare limit, sometimes someone else takes care of
the health problems so that worry might not even be thought of.

>> *guessing here. There isn't a CostCo around here. I've heard they are a
>> membership type store, like SamsClub. The local grocery store charges
>> more then 3$ lbs for decent beef, Wal-mart charges less but I've never
>> seen anything there that looked eatable.
> 
> I wouldn't shop at Wallmart if it was the last place on the planet to buy 
> stuff.  Or Sams Club, for that matter.  They're part of the problem, not 
> the solution - if anyone thinks different, try talking to some of the 
> underpaid employees sometime.
> 
> Jim

I had, for quite a while, refused to even enter a wallmart, just on
principle. I was convinced once to compare my grocery bill by shopping
there, someone was convinced that 'everything was cheaper, it'll help
you save a bit.' So I did. Normal grocery shopping, bread, milk, soda,
cereal and other sundris. Came out 10$ more expensive. Some stuff looks
cheaper, but they nickel and dime the little things like cheap bread and
milk. I'm back to refusing to shop there.

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And lo on Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:21:27 -0000, Ross <rli### [at] speakeasynet>  
did spake, saying:

> "scott" <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote in message
> news:475f9dc1$1@news.povray.org...
>>> Time is also a factor to consider.
>>
>> I think this is the key point, also laziness.  Why spend all the effort
>> shopping and making stuff, when for a couple of $ more you can get it  
>> all
>> done for you?  I suspect for most people the extra expense for a
>> ready-made burger is less than what they could earn in the time it takes
>> to buy ingredients and prepare.
>>
>> Buying in bulk and doing it yourself is all very well, but unless you  
>> plan
>> to eat burgers every night your ingredients are going to go bad pretty
>> soon, then the cost benefit is wiped out.  Don't forget you have all the
>> other stuff in the burger, like salad, sauces, cheese etc.
>>
>>
>
> But does any part of going to McD's outweight the family bonding  
> experience of making a meal?

Perhaps the social bonding experience when most of your neighbourhood  
treat McD's as the default family dinner location?

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote in message 
news:op.t298wewoc3xi7v@news.povray.org...
> And lo on Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:21:27 -0000, Ross <rli### [at] speakeasynet> 
> did spake, saying:
>
>> "scott" <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote in message
>> news:475f9dc1$1@news.povray.org...
>>>> Time is also a factor to consider.
>>>
>>> I think this is the key point, also laziness.  Why spend all the effort
>>> shopping and making stuff, when for a couple of $ more you can get it 
>>> all
>>> done for you?  I suspect for most people the extra expense for a
>>> ready-made burger is less than what they could earn in the time it takes
>>> to buy ingredients and prepare.
>>>
>>> Buying in bulk and doing it yourself is all very well, but unless you 
>>> plan
>>> to eat burgers every night your ingredients are going to go bad pretty
>>> soon, then the cost benefit is wiped out.  Don't forget you have all the
>>> other stuff in the burger, like salad, sauces, cheese etc.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> But does any part of going to McD's outweight the family bonding 
>> experience of making a meal?
>
> Perhaps the social bonding experience when most of your neighbourhood 
> treat McD's as the default family dinner location?
>

Interesting, but are these the kids who don't know where milk comes from?

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And lo on Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:58:51 -0000, Ross <rli### [at] speakeasynet>  
did spake, saying:

> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote in message
> news:op.t298wewoc3xi7v@news.povray.org...
>> And lo on Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:21:27 -0000, Ross  
>> <rli### [at] speakeasynet>
>> did spake, saying:
>>> But does any part of going to McD's outweight the family bonding
>>> experience of making a meal?
>>
>> Perhaps the social bonding experience when most of your neighbourhood
>> treat McD's as the default family dinner location?
>>
>
> Interesting, but are these the kids who don't know where milk comes from?

Pfft everyone knows where milk comes from - the fridge.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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Phil Cook wrote:

> 
> Pfft everyone knows where milk comes from - the fridge.
> 

Euhmmm... nevermind. Fridge is an excellent answer.

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