What kind of people use Povray? I keep hearing about this "certain
niche," but more specifically... I don't see many female users for
instance. Also, the program doesn't seem to be well suited for
Engineering, drafting, or even designing real-life objects. Now, I am
well aware that the ray tracer is just made to create images, but that's
the problem. Other programs may offer tension or elasticity analyses, or
offer  to work with materials with actual physical properties.
   I haven't heard of any company using POV-ray to design their bikes or
remote controls, like with Rhino. Povray is too difficult for, say,
architecture, since walkthroughs are a pain. The features include
cylinders, not pipes; "clipped_by," not "window." It seems that
everything you do, has to be done from scratch unless you look for
include files. Even for graphics, motion picture industries use
expensive programs like 3D Studio, and others simply use 2D programs
like Photoshop.
   So what does that leave us with? Artists who want total control over
the scene? Computer programmers who simply want to challenge themselves?
In other words, it seems to me that Povray has few practical
applications, but is more of a hobby, or even a teaching device for
understanding higher-level programs.

Post a reply to this message

Adam wrote:
> 
>    What kind of people use Povray?

I was going to give you a well thought out reply but I think, for me
anyway, it just boils down to one thing. I have FUN using the program.
It sure beats going out wasting my money trying to find entertainment
elsewhere. What kind of person am I ? Probably not a typical POV-Ray
user, I lack any form of formal education in computers or mathematics,
but with dogged persistence I produce some interesting imagery despite
myself and that is all I really care about.

-- 
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:41:12 -0700, Adam <bel### [at] yahoocom> wrote:

>   What kind of people use Povray? I keep hearing about this "certain
>niche," but more specifically... I don't see many female users for
>instance. Also, the program doesn't seem to be well suited for
>Engineering, drafting, or even designing real-life objects. Now, I am
>well aware that the ray tracer is just made to create images, but that's
>the problem. Other programs may offer tension or elasticity analyses, or
>offer  to work with materials with actual physical properties.
>   I haven't heard of any company using POV-ray to design their bikes or
>remote controls, like with Rhino. Povray is too difficult for, say,
>architecture, since walkthroughs are a pain. The features include
>cylinders, not pipes; "clipped_by," not "window." It seems that
>everything you do, has to be done from scratch unless you look for
>include files. Even for graphics, motion picture industries use
>expensive programs like 3D Studio, and others simply use 2D programs
>like Photoshop.
>   So what does that leave us with? Artists who want total control over
>the scene? Computer programmers who simply want to challenge themselves?
>In other words, it seems to me that Povray has few practical
>applications, but is more of a hobby, or even a teaching device for
>understanding higher-level programs.

Why should it have practical applications?  Povray exists.  It has an
enthusiastic following, the people who create the source do it for free, the
people who use it do it because they get pleasure out of it.  No other
justification is necessary. (I will let our female users speak for themselves:-)

I like Povray because it is honest. You get a 3D model that is as good as your
skill with the program allows. The fact that you can view your image from
different viewpoints distinguishes it from programs that use the projection of
images or 2D painting to achieve their 3D effects.  And I like the idea of a
text based modeller.  Of course it's not easy to get what you want out of it,
but you always have that feeling that Povray has the capabilities and it's you
that has the limitations.

Povray is the ideal international co-operative venture.  We have a host of
clever people around the world trying out different ideas, looking at commercial
and academic developments and trying to incorporate all the best ideas, as well
as coming up with innovative solutions. It is truly a worldwide phenomenon -
even though we have different languages we can all appreciate a good Povray
rendered image and the code that has gone to produce it.

We have Povray artists who are extremely talented and their images are getting
better all the time.  Perhaps Povray will be the 21st century's contribution to
pictorial art - who knows :-)
David
dav### [at] hamiltonitecom
http://hamiltonite.com/

Post a reply to this message

I think it's worth mentioning here that most of those people using
professional commercial software, like 3DSMax, got their start
with something like POV-Ray.  You don't just go out and plunk
down a few thousand dollars on something like that without
getting your feet wet first.  POV-Ray, while not being as widely
used in the commercial and engineering areas, does have one
excellent benefit: it's free.  And because of this, many more people
are introduced to raytracing.

--
Doug Eichenberg
http://www.nls.net/douge
dou### [at] nlsnet

Post a reply to this message

"David Wilkinson" <dav### [at] blueyondercouk> wrote in message

<Snip>

It is truly a worldwide phenomenon -
> even though we have different languages we can all appreciate a good
Povray
> rendered image and the code that has gone to produce it.
>


> David
> dav### [at] hamiltonitecom
> http://hamiltonite.com/


     Although new to this David, I understand and agree with what you are
saying.  It's a media that can truly be played with, and experimented with,
for all to see and divulge. I am in awe at the images that Fabian Brau has
produced, ( ref: Vases, in .images)
     Even if I don't get to where I want to go with this, I will still be
able to come back here and have a look at the fascinating sites before me.
                                      ~Steve~

Post a reply to this message

So, it seems that we agree that Povray is a good free program. It's
always good to see exactly what you're doing and to be able to experiment.
Such is the design. The question is, what are people doing with it?
Apparently, my hunch has been correct. People that use the program are
artists--or at least that's what they call themselves--who like the idea of
creating seemingly photorealistic if not surrealistic scenes. People also
use the program to acquaint themselves with ray tracing and to "have fun"
from successfully completing "projects," or even from competing in IRTC.
   What surprises me is the ammount of extra knowledge these artists must
obtain: both computer knowledge--for editing INI files for example--and
mathematical knowledge--for working with normalized time in animations, just
to create a picture.
   Then, let me put it this way. Does anyone make good money using Povray.
I'm talking computer art expos, product design teams, architects, city
planning, anything of the sort. I haven't heard anyone say a thing about the
usefullness of Povray. People have been talking of it as if it were a sport,
not a tool. You have fun, exercise your mind, get your feet wet, join an
international phenomenon, etc. That's something you say about scooters or
Pokemon, not a screwdriver or a calculator.

Post a reply to this message

>    Then, let me put it this way. Does anyone make good money using Povray.

As far as I know, nobody is making any money using POV-Ray.  The people who
write it distribute it freely, so they're not making anything off of it; the
people who use it are largely hobbyists, so they're probably not making
anything either.  By and large it's a 'labor of love.'  People do it for
fun.

--
Doug Eichenberg
http://www.nls.net/douge
dou### [at] nlsnet

Post a reply to this message

it looks like most answers to this post have been general in nature when
i think you were really wanting personal answers as to what we
personally do with pov, and a little background info about ourselves. 
am i wrong?  some answers can be found at the new povusers.org (or is it
povrayusers.org?) where many users have posted information about
themselves (not me YET).  

as for myself, the reason i started using povray is a long story i will
try to make short.  basically, i'm good at everything i try to do and
have an interest in literally everything.  my brother on the other hand
isn't good at much and always felt he was in my shadow.  he took up
art.  i did too.  my parents asked me to stop.  i complied.  15 years
later, my brother is in a tech school for computer networking (not art)
and i'm at university for electrical engineering (which i love). 
however, i always wished i had pursued art because the little i was able
to do was very good.  with years spent in mathematics and technical
courses (and with a love for computers) however, i decided that computer
graphics is the best hope i have for an artistic outlet.  i started with
paint shop pro, then found terragen, then povray.  i started this year
and love it.  i quickly found that model making comes easy to me, but as
h.e. day was oh so quick to point out, my texturing 'needs work'
(sucks).  so lately, i've been spending a little time modelling and a
lot of time reading everything i can about procedural textures.  i hope
to someday conquer texures and make realistic images in povray.  my goal
is realism in images, but i must say that some of the more abstract and
stylized images other povers make are incredible and often beautiful. 
these folks in this community are a constant inspiration to me.

as far as i know, povray isn't that useful commercially.  quality images
take too darn long to make for commercial purposes unless one has a lot
of preconstructed models laying around.  i have heard, however of people
using other tools to develop a scene and then using povray as the final
renderer.  i don't know how much of that goes around.  you are right
about extra math or computer knowledge being a must.  but there are a
lot of macros and includes already constructed that less technical folfs
can use and also modellers like moray (the one i mainly use), povlab,
and spatch.

Adam wrote:
> 
>    So, it seems that we agree that Povray is a good free program. It's
> always good to see exactly what you're doing and to be able to experiment.
> Such is the design. The question is, what are people doing with it?
> Apparently, my hunch has been correct. People that use the program are
> artists--or at least that's what they call themselves--who like the idea of
> creating seemingly photorealistic if not surrealistic scenes. People also
> use the program to acquaint themselves with ray tracing and to "have fun"
> from successfully completing "projects," or even from competing in IRTC.
>    What surprises me is the ammount of extra knowledge these artists must
> obtain: both computer knowledge--for editing INI files for example--and
> mathematical knowledge--for working with normalized time in animations, just
> to create a picture.
>    Then, let me put it this way. Does anyone make good money using Povray.
> I'm talking computer art expos, product design teams, architects, city
> planning, anything of the sort. I haven't heard anyone say a thing about the
> usefullness of Povray. People have been talking of it as if it were a sport,
> not a tool. You have fun, exercise your mind, get your feet wet, join an
> international phenomenon, etc. That's something you say about scooters or
> Pokemon, not a screwdriver or a calculator.

Post a reply to this message

Adam <bel### [at] yahoocom> wrote...

> Apparently, my hunch has been correct. People that use the program are
> artists--or at least that's what they call themselves--

So, in your opinion, what makes a person an artist?  My opinion is that if a
person attempts to be an artist, that simple step means they have succeeded
in their attempt.  (They may not be a great artist, but they are still an
artist.)

>    Then, let me put it this way. Does anyone make good money using Povray.

The fact is that it takes more time to generate an image with POV than with
most commercial tools.  With POV, if you put in a little work, you get poor
results.  If you put in a lot of work, you get excellent results.  With
commercial software, you still have to put in a lot of work to get excellent
results, but if you only put in a little work, the results generally look
acceptable.  For most businesses, which are all about getting things done
quickly, such results are considered "good enough."

If someone is making "good money" creating excellent computer graphics, then
they will probably spend a chunk of that money on a product that has a
larger team of developers (who are motivated by money), a tech-support phone
number, and many cool user-interface features which make life easier.
Because POV lacks these things, it is generally not chosen for commercial
work.

> People have been talking of it as if it were a sport,
> not a tool. You have fun, exercise your mind, get your feet wet, join an
> international phenomenon, etc. That's something you say about scooters or
> Pokemon, not a screwdriver or a calculator.

Yes, it might be better (at this point) to compare POV to a sport as opposed
to a tool.

I have a vision to help build POV into a tool that can be used for
commercial applications, but that will not likely be realized for at least a
few more years.

I should point out that I have used POV-Ray to generate graphics for my job.
However, all that work has been fairly minor, since my primary work is not
as a graphic artist.

-Nathan

Post a reply to this message

I'm sick of people saying povray sucks just because it haven't got a built
in modeller.
It seems like a lot of people thinks povray is useless just because it's
freeware.

POV-Ray is for the perfectionist, the real artist!
An artist is not one who piracy 3dsmax or lightwave and then says povray is
useless.

--
Peter
http://hertel.no/bigone

Post a reply to this message