I'm pretty much a beginner with POV and I'm just curious the most common
way to develop coordinates. I mean, it would seem that a modeler is very
useful for creating scenes and placing objects in certain places until
it looks right, however I have read that a modeler isn't the way to go.
(It doesn't seem like any of the IRTC winners use modelers) Other than a
modeler, how can one create a scene by just typing in code? Wouldn't you
need some sort of visual representation of what the hell you're doing?
Or maybe it's just me, and thats the attitude of all beginners.

Matt Morris

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Matt Morris wrote:
> 
> I'm pretty much a beginner with POV and I'm just curious the most common
> way to develop coordinates. I mean, it would seem that a modeler is very
> useful for creating scenes and placing objects in certain places until
> it looks right, however I have read that a modeler isn't the way to go.
> (It doesn't seem like any of the IRTC winners use modelers) Other than a
> modeler, how can one create a scene by just typing in code? Wouldn't you
> need some sort of visual representation of what the hell you're doing?
> Or maybe it's just me, and thats the attitude of all beginners.
> 
> Matt Morris

I'll try to answer this one but may fall short.

Yes you will find the proverbial newbie scrambling to to find a
modeler to get a visual representation. It's a natural byproduct
of using paint and Cad programs I would imagine. There is a lot
of merit in using a modeler in the beginning just to get a feel
for how the coordinate system works. I personaly started using
pov without a modeler and suffered as a result for quite a while.
Now I am perfectly at home in this script driven environment and
have no need for one. Others will start with a modeling program
and slowly gravitate away from it when they realize there are
features in pov that no modeler supports and are forced to work
with text only. So you see there are advantages and disadvantages
no matter which way you go. Moray is by far the most popular
modeling program for Pov but I never liked it because it uses
a reversed coordinate sytem that is not the default used by Pov.

Opinion wise I suggest you use whatever method suits you and allows
you to be as creative as you can be. If you follow my lead you will
be a better artist than the modeler alone Pov user because you will
understand the inner working of Pov to a greater extint than you can
in a modeler only environment. This is not to say you can't achieve
great results in a modeler only environment I just feel you will limit
your possibilities.


Any help ?


-- 
Ken Tyler

tyl### [at] pacbellnet

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As a matter of fact, that did help. I guess getting good at POV isn't just
about reading the
manual a few times; it takes lots of practice. I assume being able to place
objects on the screen
with just script takes developed skill, but most of all patience. Here's a
question for the advanced
users: what other programs do you use? (to make bezier patches, advanced
shapes, etc..) And
another thing, how many of you true POVies are artists away from the computer?
Is that something
that really helps?

Ken wrote:

> Matt Morris wrote:
> >
> > I'm pretty much a beginner with POV and I'm just curious the most common
> > way to develop coordinates. I mean, it would seem that a modeler is very
> > useful for creating scenes and placing objects in certain places until
> > it looks right, however I have read that a modeler isn't the way to go.
> > (It doesn't seem like any of the IRTC winners use modelers) Other than a
> > modeler, how can one create a scene by just typing in code? Wouldn't you
> > need some sort of visual representation of what the hell you're doing?
> > Or maybe it's just me, and thats the attitude of all beginners.
> >
> > Matt Morris
>
> I'll try to answer this one but may fall short.
>
> Yes you will find the proverbial newbie scrambling to to find a
> modeler to get a visual representation. It's a natural byproduct
> of using paint and Cad programs I would imagine. There is a lot
> of merit in using a modeler in the beginning just to get a feel
> for how the coordinate system works. I personaly started using
> pov without a modeler and suffered as a result for quite a while.
> Now I am perfectly at home in this script driven environment and
> have no need for one. Others will start with a modeling program
> and slowly gravitate away from it when they realize there are
> features in pov that no modeler supports and are forced to work
> with text only. So you see there are advantages and disadvantages
> no matter which way you go. Moray is by far the most popular
> modeling program for Pov but I never liked it because it uses
> a reversed coordinate sytem that is not the default used by Pov.
>
> Opinion wise I suggest you use whatever method suits you and allows
> you to be as creative as you can be. If you follow my lead you will
> be a better artist than the modeler alone Pov user because you will
> understand the inner working of Pov to a greater extint than you can
> in a modeler only environment. This is not to say you can't achieve
> great results in a modeler only environment I just feel you will limit
> your possibilities.
>
> Any help ?
>
> --
> Ken Tyler
>
> tyl### [at] pacbellnet

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Matt Morris wrote:
> 
> As a matter of fact, that did help. I guess getting good at POV isn't just
> about reading the
> manual a few times; it takes lots of practice. I assume being able to place
> objects on the screen
> with just script takes developed skill, but most of all patience. Here's a
> question for the advanced
> users: what other programs do you use? (to make bezier patches, advanced
> shapes, etc..) And
> another thing, how many of you true POVies are artists away from the computer?
> Is that something
> that really helps?

For height fields I suggest Leveller and for bezier patches I suggest
a program called SPatch. Rather than listing them all here I'll send
you my bookmarks of all the pov related utility programs I have links
for. This way you can evaluate for yourself their worth and if you
care to download them.

I am not an artist other than that which is created with Pov. There
are a small few that frequent the groups here that are though. I would
guess the majority are hobbyist. Most professionals go for the high
end commercial packages.

-- 
Ken Tyler

tyl### [at] pacbellnet

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Yes, sPatch is good for diving into shapes, as long as you get the
general idea of such programs to begin with.
As for the other things said, I kind of started out making graphics
through the old basic language back in the late 80's then bought a
simple CAD program that only drew in wire frame, soon after my first
modelor/renderer/raytracer, then Polyray and finally POV-Ray by 1994. I
kind of hated the modelor (CAD) type thing is probably why I delved back
into the realm of scripting it out instead. As Ken said, it depends
greatly on the individual, probably the most important factor there is.
I've managed to get one "modeled" piece I made in sPatch into a
"textual" model out of both need and curiosity. Reason I don't use the
modellors is that I dislike wireframe and object manipulation in a
GUI-based program. Preference, skill factor, makes a big difference.

Bet Ken had some good links there too.


Ken wrote:
> 
> Matt Morris wrote:
> >
> > As a matter of fact, that did help. I guess getting good at POV isn't just
> > about reading the
> > manual a few times; it takes lots of practice. I assume being able to place
> > objects on the screen
> > with just script takes developed skill, but most of all patience. Here's a
> > question for the advanced
> > users: what other programs do you use? (to make bezier patches, advanced
> > shapes, etc..) And
> > another thing, how many of you true POVies are artists away from the computer?
> > Is that something
> > that really helps?
> 
> For height fields I suggest Leveller and for bezier patches I suggest
> a program called SPatch. Rather than listing them all here I'll send
> you my bookmarks of all the pov related utility programs I have links
> for. This way you can evaluate for yourself their worth and if you
> care to download them.
> 
> I am not an artist other than that which is created with Pov. There
> are a small few that frequent the groups here that are though. I would
> guess the majority are hobbyist. Most professionals go for the high
> end commercial packages.
> 
> --
> Ken Tyler
> 
> tyl### [at] pacbellnet

-- 
 omniVERSE: beyond the universe
  http://members.aol.com/inversez/POVring.htm
=Bob

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Not that I disagree with Ken, but I don't see any harm in going about
learning in any particular way.  There's no rules to follow, just do
what's easiest.  I started out doing only script and then moved on to
modellers.  I still do most of my POV-Ray stuff by hand, but I also
spend as much time working with other modellers, and often convert the
models to POV-Ray compatible files.  It's worked well for me.

If you're going to be using POV, might as well learn the language.  I
estimate it takes a few months to get it all down, then you're free to
do just about anything without having to look things up much.

-mike

Ken wrote:
> 
> Matt Morris wrote:
> >
> > I'm pretty much a beginner with POV and I'm just curious the most common
> > way to develop coordinates. I mean, it would seem that a modeler is very
> > useful for creating scenes and placing objects in certain places until
> > it looks right, however I have read that a modeler isn't the way to go.
> > (It doesn't seem like any of the IRTC winners use modelers) Other than a
> > modeler, how can one create a scene by just typing in code? Wouldn't you
> > need some sort of visual representation of what the hell you're doing?
> > Or maybe it's just me, and thats the attitude of all beginners.
> >
> > Matt Morris
> 
> I'll try to answer this one but may fall short.
> 
> Yes you will find the proverbial newbie scrambling to to find a
> modeler to get a visual representation. It's a natural byproduct
> of using paint and Cad programs I would imagine. There is a lot
> of merit in using a modeler in the beginning just to get a feel
> for how the coordinate system works. I personaly started using
> pov without a modeler and suffered as a result for quite a while.
> Now I am perfectly at home in this script driven environment and
> have no need for one. Others will start with a modeling program
> and slowly gravitate away from it when they realize there are
> features in pov that no modeler supports and are forced to work
> with text only. So you see there are advantages and disadvantages
> no matter which way you go. Moray is by far the most popular
> modeling program for Pov but I never liked it because it uses
> a reversed coordinate sytem that is not the default used by Pov.
> 
> Opinion wise I suggest you use whatever method suits you and allows
> you to be as creative as you can be. If you follow my lead you will
> be a better artist than the modeler alone Pov user because you will
> understand the inner working of Pov to a greater extint than you can
> in a modeler only environment. This is not to say you can't achieve
> great results in a modeler only environment I just feel you will limit
> your possibilities.
> 
> Any help ?
> 
> --
> Ken Tyler
> 
> tyl### [at] pacbellnet

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Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
: Moray is by far the most popular
: modeling program for Pov but I never liked it because it uses
: a reversed coordinate sytem that is not the default used by Pov.

  It still remains as one of the greatest mysteries in computer land to me
why there cannot be an option in moray preferences settings to change the
coordinate system. Something like "Use POV-Ray-style left-handed coordinates"
with a checkbox which you can turn on.
  Perhaps this great mystery will be revealed some day...

-- 
main(i){char*_="BdsyFBThhHFBThhHFRz]NFTITQF|DJIFHQhhF";while(i=
*_++)for(;i>1;printf("%s",i-70?i&1?"[]":" ":(i=0,"\n")),i/=2);} /*- Warp. -*/

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Nieminen Mika wrote:
> 
> Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
> : Moray is by far the most popular
> : modeling program for Pov but I never liked it because it uses
> : a reversed coordinate sytem that is not the default used by Pov.
> 
>   It still remains as one of the greatest mysteries in computer land to me
> why there cannot be an option in moray preferences settings to change the
> coordinate system. Something like "Use POV-Ray-style left-handed coordinates"
> with a checkbox which you can turn on.
>   Perhaps this great mystery will be revealed some day...
> 

I asked Lutz about this once and his reply was that he is only
comfortable in a right handed system and so that is the way it's
going to stay. If we could retrain Lutz then maybe someday it
will change.

-- 
Ken Tyler

tyl### [at] pacbellnet

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Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
: I asked Lutz about this once and his reply was that he is only
: comfortable in a right handed system and so that is the way it's
: going to stay. If we could retrain Lutz then maybe someday it
: will change.

  I don't understand.
  The fact that you _can_ use a left handed system doesn't mean that you
_have_ to do so. If he implements the coordinate system switching, that
doesn't mean he has to start using the left handed system.
  Why is it so difficult to just implement the feature for those who want
to use it? If he doesn't like the left handed system, nobody is forcing
him to use it.
  I can't see what harm would an option like this do to the program.

-- 
main(i){char*_="BdsyFBThhHFBThhHFRz]NFTITQF|DJIFHQhhF";while(i=
*_++)for(;i>1;printf("%s",i-70?i&1?"[]":" ":(i=0,"\n")),i/=2);} /*- Warp. -*/

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Ken wrote in message <36ABF76A.3C524C31@pacbell.net>...
[snip]
>Others will start with a modeling program
>and slowly gravitate away from it when they realize there are
>features in pov that no modeler supports and are forced to work
>with text only.
[snip]

And then there are others (very comfortable with programming and scripting
in general) who never "gravitate away" from modelers, simply prefering their
ease of use and instant visual feedback over a script-language, and instead
using their programming skills for writing tools and plug-ins for stuff not
possible in their modeler of choice. You know, about a year ago I planned an
image that would involve many trees, which I had no idea how to build in
Moray, so I set out to write a tool to help me with that - alas, the tool is
there, but the image is still only a figment of my imagination... ;-)

Johannes.

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