POV-Ray : Newsgroups : povray.general : Legal question Server Time: 15 Dec 2019 20:33:32 GMT
  Legal question (Message 1 to 10 of 10)  
From: Randi Olsen
Subject: Legal question
Date: 18 Nov 2019 01:10:00
Message: <web.5dd1ee70fe444a53c9a279040@news.povray.org>
I am developing a modeller for IOS and would like to know what I can and can't
use with regards to the POV-Ray name, other than the agreements from the
binaries and source code.  Also looking for how I can refer to POV-Ray in the
app and in the description of the app that will appear on the App Store.

Note that the app will not generate the ray-traced files, but rather a text file
containing the scene modelled on the app.

This is probably not the correct group for getting that information, but if
someone could point me in the right direction, it would be greatly appreciated.

Randi O.


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From: William F Pokorny
Subject: Re: Legal question
Date: 18 Nov 2019 11:06:46
Message: <5dd27b46$1@news.povray.org>
On 11/17/19 8:05 PM, Randi Olsen wrote:
...
> 
> This is probably not the correct group for getting that information, but if
> someone could point me in the right direction, it would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Randi O.
> 

I know "POV-Ray" is a trademarked term(1) so I expect you should follow 
whatever rules there are for using other's trademarks for a start, but 
otherwise unsure. I've forwarded your question directly to the 
developers noting your question here.

Bill P.

(1) - Scroll to the very bottom of the http://www.povray.org/ main page.


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From: William F Pokorny
Subject: Re: Legal question
Date: 19 Nov 2019 15:20:31
Message: <5dd4083f$1@news.povray.org>
On 11/18/19 6:06 AM, William F Pokorny wrote:
> On 11/17/19 8:05 PM, Randi Olsen wrote:
> ...
>>
>> This is probably not the correct group for getting that information, 
>> but if
>> someone could point me in the right direction, it would be greatly 
>> appreciated.
>>
>> Randi O.
>>
> 
> I know "POV-Ray" is a trademarked term(1) so I expect you should follow 
> whatever rules there are for using other's trademarks for a start, but 
> otherwise unsure. I've forwarded your question directly to the 
> developers noting your question here.
> 
> Bill P.
> 
> (1) - Scroll to the very bottom of the http://www.povray.org/ main page.

OK. Got a little feedback. Mostly, there is no inclination to give any 
non-lawyer written response which might corrupt the legal standing of 
the current trademarks.

Unofficially, I'll offer the following summary of the feedback.

Follow TM practices as in, for example, using the term 'POV-Ray' with 
the associated (TM) plain text or trademark symbol.

There is a wikipedia trademarks page and a web site was suggested in: 
https://www.linuxfoundation.org/trademark-usage/

The trademarks of Persistence of Vision Raytracer Pty. Ltd. should be 
used in a manner that is not misleading or confusing. See the link above 
for good guidance there.

Lastly, my recollection is the list of trademarked terms are: 'POV-Ray', 
'Persistence of Vision Ray Tracer', 'POV-Team', 'POVWIN' and 'povray'.

Bill P.


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From: Dick Balaska
Subject: Re: Legal question
Date: 19 Nov 2019 17:56:54
Message: <5dd42ce6$1@news.povray.org>
On 11/19/19 10:20 AM, William F Pokorny wrote:

> 
> Lastly, my recollection is the list of trademarked terms are: 'POV-Ray', 
> 'Persistence of Vision Ray Tracer', 'POV-Team', 'POVWIN' and 'povray'.
> 
> Bill P.

I always thought POVWIN was a colloquialism.

-- 
dik
Rendered 25,006,957,200 of 49,882,521,600 pixels (50%)


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From: Randi Olsen
Subject: Re: Legal question
Date: 20 Nov 2019 00:10:00
Message: <web.5dd483a0d33bc1f1c9a279040@news.povray.org>
William F Pokorny <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
> On 11/18/19 6:06 AM, William F Pokorny wrote:
> > On 11/17/19 8:05 PM, Randi Olsen wrote:
> > ...
> >>
> >> This is probably not the correct group for getting that information,
> >> but if
> >> someone could point me in the right direction, it would be greatly
> >> appreciated.
> >>
> >> Randi O.
> >>
> >
> > I know "POV-Ray" is a trademarked term(1) so I expect you should follow
> > whatever rules there are for using other's trademarks for a start, but
> > otherwise unsure. I've forwarded your question directly to the
> > developers noting your question here.
> >
> > Bill P.
> >
> > (1) - Scroll to the very bottom of the http://www.povray.org/ main page.
>
> OK. Got a little feedback. Mostly, there is no inclination to give any
> non-lawyer written response which might corrupt the legal standing of
> the current trademarks.
>
> Unofficially, I'll offer the following summary of the feedback.
>
> Follow TM practices as in, for example, using the term 'POV-Ray' with
> the associated (TM) plain text or trademark symbol.
>
> There is a wikipedia trademarks page and a web site was suggested in:
> https://www.linuxfoundation.org/trademark-usage/
>
> The trademarks of Persistence of Vision Raytracer Pty. Ltd. should be
> used in a manner that is not misleading or confusing. See the link above
> for good guidance there.
>
> Lastly, my recollection is the list of trademarked terms are: 'POV-Ray',
> 'Persistence of Vision Ray Tracer', 'POV-Team', 'POVWIN' and 'povray'.
>
> Bill P.

Thank you so much for your time and effort in responding to my question.  It did
help me.

Randi O.


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From: Mr
Subject: Re: Legal question
Date: 20 Nov 2019 10:45:01
Message: <web.5dd518bed33bc1f116086ed00@news.povray.org>
William F Pokorny <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
> On 11/18/19 6:06 AM, William F Pokorny wrote:
> > On 11/17/19 8:05 PM, Randi Olsen wrote:
> > ...
> >>
> >> This is probably not the correct group for getting that information,
> >> but if
> >> someone could point me in the right direction, it would be greatly
> >> appreciated.
> >>
> >> Randi O.
> >>
> >
> > I know "POV-Ray" is a trademarked term(1) so I expect you should follow
> > whatever rules there are for using other's trademarks for a start, but
> > otherwise unsure. I've forwarded your question directly to the
> > developers noting your question here.
> >
> > Bill P.
> >
> > (1) - Scroll to the very bottom of the http://www.povray.org/ main page.
>
> OK. Got a little feedback. Mostly, there is no inclination to give any
> non-lawyer written response which might corrupt the legal standing of
> the current trademarks.
>
> Unofficially, I'll offer the following summary of the feedback.
>
> Follow TM practices as in, for example, using the term 'POV-Ray' with
> the associated (TM) plain text or trademark symbol.
>
> There is a wikipedia trademarks page and a web site was suggested in:
> https://www.linuxfoundation.org/trademark-usage/
>
> The trademarks of Persistence of Vision Raytracer Pty. Ltd. should be
> used in a manner that is not misleading or confusing. See the link above
> for good guidance there.
>
> Lastly, my recollection is the list of trademarked terms are: 'POV-Ray',
> 'Persistence of Vision Ray Tracer', 'POV-Team', 'POVWIN' and 'povray'.
>
> Bill P.

So, this looks like a transgression for instance :
http://persistenceofvision.com/about-us.php
is it?


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From: William F Pokorny
Subject: Re: Legal question
Date: 20 Nov 2019 14:53:54
Message: <5dd55382$1@news.povray.org>
On 11/19/19 12:56 PM, Dick Balaska wrote:
> On 11/19/19 10:20 AM, William F Pokorny wrote:
> 
>>
>> Lastly, my recollection is the list of trademarked terms are: 
>> 'POV-Ray', 'Persistence of Vision Ray Tracer', 'POV-Team', 'POVWIN' 
>> and 'povray'.
>>
>> Bill P.
> 
> I always thought POVWIN was a colloquialism.
> 
Might have been / be. I'm not a windows user and not aware of where the 
term might have been employed.

I included all the terms I've seen 'somewhere' listed as trademarks. The 
lists have not been consistent except for the first two terms.

Bill P.


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From: William F Pokorny
Subject: Re: Legal question
Date: 20 Nov 2019 15:02:50
Message: <5dd5559a$1@news.povray.org>
On 11/20/19 5:43 AM, Mr wrote:
> William F Pokorny <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
...
> 
> So, this looks like a transgression for instance :
> http://persistenceofvision.com/about-us.php
> is it?
> 
:-) I knew someone would go looking.

I'd lean toward no - but I'm not a lawyer...

Bill P.


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From: Dick Balaska
Subject: Re: Legal question
Date: 20 Nov 2019 17:37:26
Message: <5dd579d6$1@news.povray.org>
On 11/20/19 10:02 AM, William F Pokorny wrote:
> On 11/20/19 5:43 AM, Mr wrote:
>> William F Pokorny <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
> ...
>>
>> So, this looks like a transgression for instance :
>> http://persistenceofvision.com/about-us.php
>> is it?
>>
> :-) I knew someone would go looking.
> 
> I'd lean toward no - but I'm not a lawyer...
> 

I'd say yes, but also IANAL.

Both entities deal with the visual arts (in different manners).

I'd be more worried about Mr. Hollywood coming after us;
I'm not worried about it though, our usage and trademark predates his.

(Fox News is trying to trademark "OK, boomer".  They claim they are 
going to create a sitcom or game show on the name. So, really they're 
not.  They just want to be able to sue anyone who picks on old white 
people.)

-- 
dik
Rendered 25,606,886,400 of 49,882,521,600 pixels (51%)


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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Legal question
Date: 20 Nov 2019 22:48:40
Message: <5dd5c2c8$1@news.povray.org>
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 12:37:25 -0500, Dick Balaska wrote:

> On 11/20/19 10:02 AM, William F Pokorny wrote:
>> On 11/20/19 5:43 AM, Mr wrote:
>>> William F Pokorny <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
>> ...
>>>
>>> So, this looks like a transgression for instance :
>>> http://persistenceofvision.com/about-us.php is it?
>>>
>> :-) I knew someone would go looking.
>> 
>> I'd lean toward no - but I'm not a lawyer...
>> 
>> 
> I'd say yes, but also IANAL.
> 
> Both entities deal with the visual arts (in different manners).

Not a lawyer here either, but....

My understanding is that it could be considered a trademark violation if 
and only if there's the potential (or actually) confusion in the market 
between the products/marks involved.

If the site cited made claims about using ray-tracing technologies to 
render realistic virtual movie sets, then there might be a case to be 
made that they're creating confusion in the market around the confusion.

But similar to the (now defunct) software brand Novell - a name that was 
created by someone who couldn't spell "Nouvelle" - there was also a 
jewelry company called "Novell Design Studios," who refer to themselves 
in their FAQ as just "Novell".

One could have made the argument that UI design is part of software 
design, so "Novell Design Studios" (which, coincidentally, can be 
abbreviated "NDS" - which also was a trademark of Novell, Inc.) *might* 
have been able to be seen as infringing there.  Except they weren't 
(Novell, Inc. was founded in 1979 as Novell Data Systems, so they were 
the older company up until the brand was retired in 2014).

Basically...trademark law is not as clear-cut as it might seem.

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw


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