"Warp" wrote:
>   Here in Finland when voting for a president,
> the winner has to get more than 50% of the votes
> in order to win. If he/she doesn't get it in the
> first round, then a second voting is made with
> the two candidates who received most votes in
> the first round. Now in the second round one of
> the candidates surely receives more than 50% of
> the votes.

This is exactly the rules that I use in this competition! :-)

Except, people can do it all beforehand.
By specifying their different priorities at once, they say:
"My favorite president/logo is X, but in case he/it can't win, then I vote
for Y"

The rules you describe is really exactly the ones I use, but I guess I just
haven't been good at explaining them.

>   At least it sounds fair that more than a half
> of the voters agree about who is the president.

The same applies here. With the votes given so far, almost 100% agree with
the winner logo. Of course that may be because there's no option of voting
for none of the logos.

>   The idea is that those who didn't vote for
> either one of the two final candidates in the
> first round will decide who of them is their
> choice in the second round

Exactly!!! :-)
That's the whole idea of specifying several priorities!

>   I was just thinking about something like
> this system. Those who didn't give highest
> score to the two/three logos which get
> highest overall score can then decide which
> one of them they like the most. This gives
> them a second opportunity to decide, to give
> their vote. This way we get the maximum
> amount of people agreeing about the winner.

I already use that system :-)

Greetings,

Rune

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"Bill DeWitt" wrote:
> "Rune" <run### [at] inamecom> wrote :
> >
> > The winner logo will be the logo that the most
> > people think is an excellent logo for POV-Ray.
>
>     Then I should withdraw my vote, because
> although I saw a few adequate logos and a couple
> of nice ones I have yet to see an excellent one.
> I would hate for my vote to indicate anything
> other than my favorites among the ones presented.

Sorry, the sentence should say:
"The winner logo will be the logo that the most people think is the best
logo for POV-Ray (among the submitted ones)."

Do you still want to withdraw your vote? I hope not.

>     You say that you had included it (a 'none of
> the above' selection) in your first set of rules,
> but that many people found those rules confusing.

One. One person said that the rules were confusing. But that was the only
feedback I got!
(except one suggesting a webpage listing all the logos, which I did made.)

>I admit that I lost track of what you were trying
> to do after a few sentences and didn't even read
> the rest. No wonder I didn't comment on it then...

Well, I think you should have said that it wasn't clear enough then. Sorry,
but it is too late to complain about the rules, when the voting has already
started.

>     I appreciate the work you have put into this
> and will abide by the final result of this process
> unless you or someone else decides to take it upon
> themselves to do something further, but please
> remove my vote from the record.

Are you sure?

Greetings,

Rune

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"Fabien Mosen" wrote:
> Rune wrote:
> > The winner logo will be the logo that the most
> > people think is an excellent logo for POV-Ray.
> > It seems like you think that some people's
> > judgment is better than others.
>
> YES !  Would you prefer to let your neighbour
> decorate your house (or whatever), or would you
> better trust someone with some talent in that area ?

My neighbor doesn't live in *my* house, but if he did, I think he had the
right to decide things too.

Another example: Why are the people of America the ones to choose the
president? Why don't you leave the choice to the politicians, who are the
professionals? After all, is it about finding a winner, or is it about
finding an excellent president?

(That was NOT my opinion, it was the opposite!)

> > It might be true, but how can we say which people
> > have the "right" opinion? A question about which
> > logo is the better one is definitely a subjective
> > question. The answer will always depend on people's
> > opinions.
>
> Few things are really that subjective.  In this case
> (logo), we could easily sort out (by discussing it)
> a set of _criterias_, and evaluate the logos according
> to these criterias;

People have different opinions of which criterias the logo should match.
I don't want to be some kind of judge, so the only criteria I have made is
that the logo should be the best logo for POV-Ray.

> If, finally, more than one logo fulfills all the
> criterias, we could always vote to sort the "best
> liked", but we then will be sure that much
> objectivity was put in the process.

I don't agree, and I don't think we can come to an agreement because our
basic points of view are so different.

Greetings,

Rune

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Rune wrote:

> My neighbor doesn't live in *my* house, but if he did, I think he had the
> right to decide things too.

The way our president is elected is a bit confusing even for many of
the people that live here. In all but a very few cases the American
public does not elect their president. The American public elects
representatives in each state who they feel best represents their
political views. These people in turn are responsible for representing
those views in national presidential elections. Our government is
not a democratic government. It is a representative government.
When the final presidential election is held these representatives
whom we have elected, cast electoral votes. It is these votes that
actually determine who will be president. There are some situations
where the popular public vote can over ride the representitive
vote but I don't remember enough of the details of this process
to explain it to you.

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"Ken" wrote:
> Rune wrote:
>
> > My neighbor doesn't live in *my* house, but
> > if he did, I think he had the right to
> > decide things too.
>
> The way our president is elected is a bit
> confusing even for many of the people that
> live here. In all but a very few cases the
> American public does not elect their president.

Ok, it was a bad example. I really don't know anything about American
politics. But I think you get the point anyway.

Greetings,

Rune

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Ditto!

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"ryan constantine" <rco### [at] yahoocom> wrote in message
news:39014A1B.3E5DA95B@yahoo.com...
> actually, i've only been in these newsgroups for a couple of months now,
> and everyone is always so nice to each other.  i wondered what would
> happen if someone (like me) said something negative about someone's
> work.  boy did i find out!

    All of the replies were much milder than your comment, so what did you
find out? That we were more polite than you?

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"ryan constantine" wrote:
> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> >
> >     All of the replies were much milder
> > than your comment, so what did you find
> > out? That we were more polite than you?
>
> what i found out?  well, i've had family
> members in newsgroups or bulletin boards
> before, and for a while things go fine
> and dandy.  but if someone writes
> something wrong or is even only perceived
> wrong, then a lot of people get upset and
> the person that wrote the thing is outcast
> or whatever the online equivalent is.

I didn't see anyone criticize you. It was your opinions that was criticized.

> i found out that people like bob and
> nathan are willing to give the benefit of
> the doubt and be diplomatic in their
> responces, while others can be snide.
> i also found out that in my circle of
> real friends in the real world, we use
> the word suck a little less harsh than
> it was taken here.

What was it about the replies you got that you thought was snide? I don't
think they were snide. Should we have agreed completely with you in order to
you not taking it as something snide?

> i also learned that if i have a negative
> opinion about someone's work, that i
> should probably keep it to myself.
> anything else i should've learned?

Of course you have the right to come with your negative opinions about
other's work, but then others also have the right to come with their
negative opinions about your opinion. It works both ways.

Now, if we just all try to be nice, then there shouldn't be a problem.
I hope that you will stay in these newsgroups, and that you will think of us
as people who try to be polite if just you try to be polite too :-)

Greetings,

Rune

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"Rune" <run### [at] inamecom> wrote in message news:3902d02e@news.povray.org...
| Now, if we just all try to be nice, then there shouldn't be a problem.

I liked seeing that line.  Don't know exactly why.  Just do.  My subconscious sarcasm
rears it's ugly head.
Well about the "suck" (gasp!) comment, I think the obvious thing is how there tends to
be
the desire to get constructive criticism instead of one-word utterances.  That makes a
lot
of difference in how an opinion is perceived.  Wish I had more ability to do that (no,
not
the utterances!), although I often wonder if anyone hates to hear how something could
or
should be done since it's their efforts to begin with and not my own.
Anyway, again, I liked that line as I have said.

 :-)

Bob

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"ryan constantine" <rco### [at] yahoocom> wrote :
> what i found out?  well, i've had family members in newsgroups or
> bulletin boards before, and for a while things go fine and dandy.  but
> if someone writes something wrong or is even only perceived wrong, then
> a lot of people get upset and the person that wrote the thing is outcast
> or whatever the online equivalent is.

    Do you imagine that this has happened to you here?

> i found out that people like bob
> and nathan are willing to give the benefit of the doubt and be
> diplomatic in their responces, while others can be snide.

    Yet you seem to be outside of that group of "people like bob and nathan"
since you took a few words that were nothing but mild and valid statements
and have made a whole psuedo-psychological fantasy out of it. BTW, it is
considered polite to capatilize surnames. If you want people to respond
politely to you, you should treat them with respect.

> i also found
> out that in my circle of real friends in the real world, we use the word
> suck a little less harsh than it was taken here.

    I have no problem with the word itself (however, I suggest you find more
erudite companions). But your use was, as you admit you intended it to be,
harsh. It was a critizism that was undefined enough to completely remove any
constructive quality your complaint might otherwise have had and so left us
with nothing but the implied question "can you do better?" You have not
answered the question but instead have made up this little
psudeo-psycholoical test that you claim you were subjecting us to. Again, if
you want people to treat you politely, you should treat them with respect,
not like high school lab rats.

> i also learned that if
> i have a negative opinion about someone's work, that i should probably
> keep it to myself.  anything else i should've learned?

    Yes, lots. But I leave that for your further education.

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