1103_1098564188@news.povray.org...
>   Now what do I do ? Do I try to improve my current submission that wasn't 
> good enough for your initial contest and hope that it might be good enough 
> for the next round
> or do I start over and hope I don't waste my time and effort like I did 
> for the first round ?

Note that this is not a second round: we just moved the deadline (a long way 
for sure). All the entries, including yours, remain 100% valuable. They all 
remain in the race. All the work you put in your entry hasn't been wasted at 
all. The final deadline will be final.

However, the delay will give you the chance to have a second look at your 
entry, to show it to other people, to compare it to the best stuff you can 
see in the HOF or other 3D galleries and see if you can make it better. 
Perhaps you won't find it necessary, perhaps you will.  That's really up to 
you, but, as understandably frustrating and unwelcome as it is, the 
postponement is there to give people the (rather unique) opportunity, and 
time, to do that.
We really want the best from you all, and we want all these pictures to 
really shine, so make the best of these 3 months!

G.


-- 
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

"Chris Holtorf" <lho### [at] nwlinkcom> wrote in message 
news:1103_1098564188@news.povray.org...
>   Now what do I do ? Do I try to improve my current submission that wasn't 
> good enough for your initial contest and hope that it might be good enough 
> for the next round
> or do I start over and hope I don't waste my time and effort like I did 
> for the first round ?
>

How do you know that your image was not one of the exceptional?

For me, I did the best I could with the time allotted.  There are many 
people here with skills that are far better than mine.  But I work with what 
I know, and with what time and hardware permit.  If I didn't think I had a 
chance, I would not have entered the competition to begin with.

You also have to realize that this competition is not as much about "us" as 
it is about "POV-Ray."  These prizes are not simply being given-out because 
of someone's generosity.  While some generosity has come into play, the 
prizes are also an advertisement for the sponsors.  People don't like to 
talk about this, but it's a reality.  The sponsors expect something in 
return, and if we don't provide that to them (in the form of exceptional 
images), they will be less likely to do this again.  I hope I don't get 
flamed for being overly frank.

Chris Cason, Gilles, Thorsten, and others have been very generous with their 
time on this, however, so please be kind to the organizers.  I would also 
like to ask everyone to try to be more positive, but all I can do is ask.

-- 
Jeremy
www.beantoad.com

In article <417ac973@news.povray.org> , "Gilles Tran" 
<gitran_nospam_@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

> However, the delay will give you the chance to have a second look at your
> entry

Not to mention, also to create additional entries!  After all, everybody is
allowed to submit up to three.  So if there is time after polishing the
first entry, working on another one will certainly improve chances to win.

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

In article <417ac708$3@news.povray.org> , "Jeremy M. Praay" 
<sla### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:

> "Time-trial" comes to my mind.  You do the best that you can.  You hope for
> the best.  You prepare for the worst.  But you never know how well you
> compare until it's all over.  Not all time-trials work that way, but the
> analogy works (for me anyway).

Yes, and the IRTC makes this easier as it allows discussion of works in
progress.  As such, to ease the rule that images may not be discussed is
certainly something we are considering.  Of course, we do not take changing
the rules lightly at all and consequently to decide to change this one is a
very difficult decision.

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

In article <417aca28$1@news.povray.org> , "Jeremy M. Praay" 
<sla### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:

> You also have to realize that this competition is not as much about "us" as
> it is about "POV-Ray."  These prizes are not simply being given-out because
> of someone's generosity.  While some generosity has come into play, the
> prizes are also an advertisement for the sponsors.  People don't like to
> talk about this, but it's a reality.  The sponsors expect something in
> return, and if we don't provide that to them (in the form of exceptional
> images), they will be less likely to do this again.  I hope I don't get
> flamed for being overly frank.

This very well describes the situation.  Chris Cason certainly spend a lot
of time getting sponsor on board.  The money for the prices did indeed not
grow on trees, and we all committed a lot of time into making the
competition a reality.  Of course, we are all amateurs and some things could
certainly have run more smoothly :-)

> Chris Cason, Gilles, Thorsten, and others have been very generous with their
> time on this, however, so please be kind to the organizers.  I would also
> like to ask everyone to try to be more positive, but all I can do is ask.

Thank you!

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

417ac708$1@news.povray.org...

> I'm planning to look on the bright side.  There were quite a few things 
> that I wanted to do, but simply ran out of time.  I expected that.  I 
> realized the time-constraints.  I'm quite hopeful that I can make a number 
> of improvements to what I've already put together, including certain 
> technical problems that I didn't notice until too late.

All I can say at this point is: you've got 3 months. Take your time. I know 
it looks like I'm trying hard to spin the postponement in a positive way ;) 
but I've noticed many times that waiting a little before declaring an image 
"finished" is often very beneficial. After working hard on something, we 
tend to focus on the small details while the big picture (no puns intended) 
gets blurry. And some stuff, well, we just can't find the courage to change 
it on the spot.

That's why I never upload images immediately at Zazzle or on my website. I 
put them through a mandatory waiting period, until I can have a fresh look 
at them, which sometimes results in fixing a lot of problems, many of them 
blindingly obvious after a couple of weeks (and the fixing is also less 
painful then, if not pleasant).

G.


-- 
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

417aca28$1@news.povray.org...
> The sponsors expect something in return, and if we don't provide that to 
> them (in the form of exceptional images), they will be less likely to do 
> this again.  I hope I don't get flamed for being overly frank.

Many thanks Jeremy!

You nailed it perfectly. I wouldn't say that it's only a sponsor problem 
(though we have seen how sponsors progressively lost interest in the IRTC), 
but in more general terms, it's about how POV-Ray is perceived by other 
people, in the 3D community or elsewhere. Events like POVCOMP can play a 
significant role in that perception, and are extremely hard to come by, so 
we'd rather not miss such an opportunity.

G.

-- 
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

Maybe the prizes were too big, and frightened some of us who thought that it
would be a extremely high-level competition.

And the time wasn't the best to choose: i didn't have much time for my
submission since i was starting the year. If i remember well, the
competition announcement was given during the holidays.
2 months would be enough, but not in early september.

Now it's a good time to start the things again.
You may put a deadline to the 31th dec. or the 5th jan..

The rules were also HARD to understand. The 1/25th of the picture is really
a silly idea! Couldn't it be "show us how far you've gone into details"?
And i sincerely had to give false coordinates because i didn't have time to
render things again, and i had to recalculate the coordinates from the
"+sr0.000245" commands (it took me almost an hour to put those coordinates,
and to re-upload the detail image each time).
A detail view? Ok, you need to know if everything has been shown. But if
there was NOTHING? It's a subjective thing, the artist will show how far he
has gone into detail, and can't do more.
Just ask to provide a picture and two detailed pictures.

And why can't the entries be modified once submitted? I may want to submit
it once to be sure to participate, and to modify it as long as i still have
time.

The format rule has not been made to be understood. Couldn't you just type
"minimum resolution: 1280*960, maximum size 5Mb"? Why couldn't i do a
960*1280 picture? And an 960*2800 one?

You asked too much for a subject-free competition. So it failed.
Do not blame any of us for that.

I just hope that povcomp will succeed.

selsek

selsek wrote:

> The rules were also HARD to understand.

Start with the intent - to form poster-sized artworks that showcased
POVray's abilities. You can't do that with only clever textures, fog, loop
statements. You need a lot more.

> The 1/25th of the picture is really
> a silly idea! Couldn't it be "show us how far you've gone into details"?

Question: How small are we _allowed_ to make the details?

> And i sincerely had to give false coordinates because i didn't have time
to
> render things again, and i had to recalculate the coordinates from the
> "+sr0.000245" commands (it took me almost an hour to put those
coordinates,
> and to re-upload the detail image each time).

Right. Holding us to exact coordinates constrains how we re-render. In this
case, part of the intent is "prove you didn't just render something else and
claim that it's one pixel in the main picture". If I prove that fact by
providing sources, then the coordinates are irrelevant.

> A detail view? Ok, you need to know if everything has been shown. But if
> there was NOTHING? It's a subjective thing, the artist will show how far
he
> has gone into detail, and can't do more.

This goes back to the intent - to showcase POVray technology.

Folks, Michelango rendered the Ceiling of the Sistine Chapel to satisfy his
customer (the Pope) first. Satisfying his own muse came second.

> And why can't the entries be modified once submitted? I may want to submit
> it once to be sure to participate, and to modify it as long as i still
have
> time.

They can. You just go thru the Web page and push it back in.

-- 
  Phlip
  http://industrialxp.org/community/bin/view/Main/TestFirstUserInterfaces

Gilles Tran wrote:
> One major reason for the lack of exceptional pieces may have been that the 
> time period of two and a half months was too short. POVCOMP is of an order 
> of magnitude harder than the IRTC, and the organisers underestimated the 
> time needed to create this sort of work without giving up on real life. 
> People couldn't find the time to complete their entries, and among those 
> submitted, we feel that many can be improved.

   That describes perfectly my thoughts (both that the time period was 
short and that many things on my entry can be improved).

> Accordingly, it has been decided to postpone the deadline until January 31, 
> 2005. That's almost 3 additional months for people to resume or complete 
> their work, or submit new ones.

   Can I admit that I *really* fantasized with this? :)

> Again, this was not an easy decision to take. I'm painfully aware of how 
> difficult this must be for the POVCOMP participants. We hope, however, that 
> these 3 extra months will result in many exceptional pictures.

   I feel it was a necessary reparation... for me, rectifying a mistake 
is always a good thing. And for the time/effort "wasted" chasing the 
last deadline... well, it was a very good experience that I don't mind 
repeating.

--
Jaime