clipka <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
> Am 23.01.2013 18:07, schrieb Patrick Elliott:
>
> > And, of course, as you say, this is just the "mild" stuff out there.
> > Sadly, a lot of the non-mild stuff is also parroted on radio, or even
> > Fox News, so.. turning off the internet, at least in the US, won't get
> > you any place either.
>
> Germany is a comparatively sane place, as far as that goes.

Indeed, and especially the city of Cologne.

Best regards,
Michael

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On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 08:54:58 -0800, Patrick Elliott wrote:

> Yes, I understand that. But that sort of compulsion has to be "rooted"
> on some level in a fear that these things might be true. And, that is
> the single hardest thing, even for people that completely give up on
> religion,
> to break. First step though has to be recognizing that its all BS from
> square one. Then, its still hard, and its not likely to help that a
> large percentage of mental health people may be just as roped in to the
> nonsense, so can't, themselves, completely break away from some level of
> belief in it.

Sure, I was replying to Cousin Ricky, though.

And some compulsions are strong enough that even when the rational mind 
says "yes, it's all BS" the compulsion still exists, as you said.

It's not something that can be "fixed" (in general) by talking to random 
strangers on the 'net, either.  And it sounds like Joerg is getting 
professional help - which is good, as long as the therapist is actually 
helping (sadly, there are those who don't do a good job at that, either, 
and it becomes necessary to "shop around" to find one who helps with the 
problem rather than turning one into a perpetual patient.  That may not 
be the case here as I don't know Joerg's therapist or their techniques).

The best thing (IMHO) any community can do is provide moral support, 
remind him that there are people here who care about him and who want him 
to get better.  Apart from being true (at least for my part), that 
generally helps break the perception of everyone persecuting the 
individual.  That and encouraging the individual to seek/continue therapy 
with a licensed and /effective/ therapist who is trained in helping 
people overcome these types of compulsion.

It's been my experience (and it may be different for Joerg, so I'm 
speaking in general terms here) that just saying "well, stop doing that" 
makes things /worse/, because often times the individual then is made to 
feel that they're inadequate because they /can't/ because the compulsion 
is so strong.

So I'm going to repeat - Joerg, there are people here and on the 'net who 
don't think you're going to hell for your lifestyle and who don't condemn 
you.  There are people here and on the 'net who support you in doing what 
is necessary to overcome this compulsion, and who want you to know that 
you are a unique and valued individual.

Jim

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Hi(gh)!

Am 23.01.2013 10:54, schrieb Kenneth:

> Internet addiction is indeed a problem, and a growing one. I'm an older guy;
> when I was growing up, we had *limited* interaction with the wider outside
> world: three TV channels(!) plus newspapers, that was about it.

Same with me - West Germany in the 1970s and early 1980s was exactly 
that way (East Germany even worse)!

> It leads
> to more extremism, in all forms.

The Internet is truly the place where McVeighs and Breiviks are born! 
After the Norway massacre in 2011, I in fact posted suggestions to shut 
down the Internet entirely (or at least to limit it strictly to the 
scientific community) in reader commentary columns of German newspapers' 
online editions...

> (That's one reason why I don't visit Facebook
> very often: too many 'fringe' opinions about things.)

Most of my real world friends do not have any Facebook account, nor do 
I... but it must be one of the dark traits of human nature (or at least 
Yadgar's nature), that perverse fascination of extremist ideas, whether 
it be that the Islamic world should be nuked to oblivion, unemployed 
should be starved to death in forced labour camps, Jews are no human 
beings but incarnations of Satan, gays should be gassed before they 
enter Hell, yadda, yadda, yadda... but I do absolutely not positively 
identify with that stuff, instead I wish myself being kicked to death by 
rabid neo-Nazis, thrown into to a future Auschwitz 2.0, perishing like a 
rat in clouds of Cyclone B... in word, ultimately punished for my mere 
existence. This mindset prevails since my childhood days, only to be 
reinforced from 2008 on by my discovery of the Calvinist doctrine of 
"total depravity" - man generally deserves nothing but everlasting 
pow(Auschwitz, infinity) (to put in POV terms), unless he completely 
surrenders to the Bible. The perfect confirmation of my deeply ingrained 
self-hate!

> So getting away from the internet (if only temporarily) is highly recommended!

Sometimes I wish that Peak Oil and the following total collapse of 
industrial civilization would rid the world of the Internet... then 
permaculture gardens, bicycles (if not even donkeys - I never had, and 
probably will have the chance to visit Afghanistan, but perhaps this way 
Afghanistan comes to us all...) would be far more important than 
programming languages, smartphones and Twitter accounts! And also POV-Ray...

See you on my screen!

Yadgar

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Hi(gh)!

Am 23.01.2013 17:57, schrieb Patrick Elliott:

> Yikes.. Yeah, ok, that is definitely an.. interesting.. compulsion. Kind
> of an extreme version of some people's adventure seeking, which is, at
> least partly, neurological. Kind of makes me wonder if that is the case
> here too, then.

Perhaps things would haved turned out better (or much worse), if back in 
summer of 1986, when I was quarreling with my parents about some usual 
youthful indepedence issue (I just turned 17), I really would have had 
the courage to run away from home, destination Afghanistan (what else?), 
somehow making my way to Peshawar or Quetta, joining up with some band 
of Mujahidin to take part in their jihad against the Soviet Army (like 
Jason Elliot in fact did in his summer holidays just before finishing 
high school - this guy is only four years older than me, I read his 
account of his later journeys in Afghanistan ("An Unexpected Light") in 
the mid-1990s, really stunning!), you know, "seeing the elephant", 
"Stahlgewitter" and all that foolish stuff about coming of age by war... 
but I cooled down after an hour or so and instead set out on a 200-mile 
bicycle trip to Amsterdam, back then still famed as a hippie/alternative 
mecca - from which my parents had to fetch me by car as my bike there 
broke down beyond repair, man, that was humiliating...

See you on my screen!

Yadgar

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Hi(gh)!

Am 23.01.2013 18:14, schrieb clipka:

> Germany is a comparatively sane place, as far as that goes.


countless picturesque but badly researched reports from Afghanistan, but 
I never watched them, although a friend constantly noticed me about 
them... I more relied on center-to-left newspapers and magazines), which 
was our Cold War equivalent to Glenn Beck, are long gone, and hardly 
anybody misses him or his show - except for the right-wing kooks on all 
those "pro-western", "libertarian", "counter-jihad", "neocon" and 
"theocon" blogs, while also crowd the German web since years...

See you in my screen!

Yadgar

Now playing: Mayan Skies (The Stranglers)

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Hi(gh)!

Am 23.01.2013 18:41, schrieb MichaelJF:
in
> Indeed, and especially the city of Cologne.

Mostly, but not entirely - the right-wing populist self-declared "civil 

But, you're right, in Cologne, there is no blaring mouthpiece of the 
Right like with Springer's "Welt" in Berlin or Burda's "Focus" in 
Munich, not to mention what it means to grow up in such conservative 
backwaters like Lower Bavaria or the Hessian highlands... and, luckily, 
we still have no real right-wing TV or radio stations in our country! If 
there is such thing like a redneck culture here, our rednecks are much 
less bold than the US ones, as almost every election shows...

See you on my screen!

Yadgar

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sounds like it's not working

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Well said! I second that fully.

Thomas

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=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg_=27Yadgar=27_Bleimann?= <yaz### [at] gmxde> wrote:
> ... and, luckily,
> we still have no real right-wing TV or radio stations in our country! If
> there is such thing like a redneck culture here, our rednecks are much
> less bold than the US ones, as almost every election shows...
>

WOW, I have no idea what that's like. I think I'd like to move there! Here in
the US, such things have a wildly-disproportionate influence. So much so that it
feels almost...normal!

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Am 23.01.2013 20:21, schrieb Jim Henderson:

> It's been my experience (and it may be different for Joerg, so I'm
> speaking in general terms here) that just saying "well, stop doing that"
> makes things /worse/, because often times the individual then is made to
> feel that they're inadequate because they /can't/ because the compulsion
> is so strong.

Indeed; maybe more important than to get rid of the compulsion is to 
accept the compulsion in a neutral fashion, as a fact of life. Nothing 
to be proud of, but nothing to be ashamed of either.

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