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From: Sven Littkowski
Subject: Most Needed: New Shape: Human
Date: 16 Dec 2015 02:47:43
Message: <5670d0cf$1@news.povray.org>
I once again want to suggest to the shape developers of POV-Ray, to add
the following new shape to the POV-Ray shape collection:

HUMAN

This shape would greatly serve as reference to countless scenes. And
this shape could be manipulated the following way: The human statement
creates a human shape standing at the coordinates < 0.0, 0.0, 0.0 > and
towering along the Y axis, the body facing the same direction as an
"image_map". There are a few body modifications possible. The syntax is:

human
{
 Body_height
 [waist_angle WAIST_ANGLE] [head_angle HEAD_ANGLE]
 [face_action FACE_ACTION] [body_action BODY_ACTION]
 [OBJECT_MODIFIERS...]
}

The body can be bended through the waist_angle along the x, y and z axis
(bending down or sidewards or turning a bit around). The default value
is "0.0", a value of "1.0" reflects the maximum bending towards a
direction a regular human body is able to.

The head can be directed around the x, y and z axis as well, using again
values between 0.0 and 1.0.

The face can be made doing some things. The following keywords are
self-describing:
happy | angry  afraid | smiling
looking_up | looking_down | looking_angle < x, y, z > |
right_eye_closed, left_eye_closed

The hands, too, can be manipulated the same way. Their default position
is open (relaxed).
right_hand_fist, left_hand_fist
right_hand_pointing, left_hand_pointing
right_hand_holding, left_hand_holding

The legs, when not standing, can be addressed, too.
step_left | step_right | run_left | run_right | jumping

The entire body can be addressed with:
standing | sitting | bending_down

Where OBJECT_MODIFIERS are:
male | female | gender GENDER (0.0..1.0)
african | asian | european | indian/australian
baby | child | teen | adult | old | age AGE (0.0..1.0)
hairless | short_hair | regular_hair | long_hair | hair HAIR (0.0..1.0)
thin | regular | fat | weight WEIGHT (0.0..1.0)
shapy | extremely_shapy | shape SHAPE (0.0..1.0)
weakish | athletic | strength STRENGTH (0.0..1.0)
dressed | undressed

Enjoy working it out and getting headache! :-D
But we need it. We want it.


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From: Thomas de Groot
Subject: Re: Most Needed: New Shape: Human
Date: 16 Dec 2015 08:14:29
Message: <56711d65$1@news.povray.org>
If I may be so bolt, this cannot be considered as a trivial project at 
all, and one can question the need for such a POV-Ray object (as I have 
already done in the past iirc). I built something like this in the past 
using Moray, as an articulated o'cedar mannequin, but it was only really 
useful in its limited way when used in Moray-built scenes. Otherwise, 
the need for human figures can go from simplified human shapes like 
dolls to elaborate, realistic, figures. All depends on the purpose of 
the artist. And how about clothes? This is a vast area not easily 
tackled indeed within a purely POV-Ray context.

As for me, I am content to use Poser for my humans. It is not cheap but 
does exactly what I want it to do (or almost). Otherwise, DAZ and 
MakeHuman are (for me) second and/or third choice. Those figures are 
very easy to integrate within a POV-Ray scene.

-- 
Thomas


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From: Paolo Gibellini
Subject: Re: Most Needed: New Shape: Human
Date: 16 Dec 2015 09:31:35
Message: <56712f77$1@news.povray.org>
Thomas de Groot wrote on 16/12/2015 9.14:
> If I may be so bolt, this cannot be considered as a trivial project at
> all, and one can question the need for such a POV-Ray object (as I have
> already done in the past iirc). I built something like this in the past
> using Moray, as an articulated o'cedar mannequin, but it was only really
> useful in its limited way when used in Moray-built scenes. Otherwise,
> the need for human figures can go from simplified human shapes like
> dolls to elaborate, realistic, figures. All depends on the purpose of
> the artist. And how about clothes? This is a vast area not easily
> tackled indeed within a purely POV-Ray context.
>
> As for me, I am content to use Poser for my humans. It is not cheap but
> does exactly what I want it to do (or almost). Otherwise, DAZ and
> MakeHuman are (for me) second and/or third choice. Those figures are
> very easy to integrate within a POV-Ray scene.
>

I agree with Thomas. There are a lot of graphical tools which generate 
human figures, and they all are imho a bit difficult to use in order to 
produce a decent figure. Writing the code without a preview could lead 
to frustrating situations.

But I would have in POV-Ray a very simplified figure placer, even more 
simple of the one described by Sven: it could be useful to put 
mannequins (the POV version of Suzanne?) and get their geometries to be 
applied on external objects like Poser, DAZ or MakeHuman.

My two cents.
Paolo


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From: clipka
Subject: Re: Most Needed: New Shape: Human
Date: 16 Dec 2015 14:15:01
Message: <web.567171acf0fb6f09ad6fa18f0@news.povray.org>
Sven Littkowski <jam### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> I once again want to suggest to the shape developers of POV-Ray, to add
> the following new shape to the POV-Ray shape collection:
>
> HUMAN
>
> This shape would greatly serve as reference to countless scenes. And
> this shape could be manipulated the following way: The human statement
> creates a human shape standing at the coordinates < 0.0, 0.0, 0.0 > and
> towering along the Y axis, the body facing the same direction as an
> "image_map". There are a few body modifications possible. The syntax is:
>
> human
> {
>  Body_height
>  [waist_angle WAIST_ANGLE] [head_angle HEAD_ANGLE]
>  [face_action FACE_ACTION] [body_action BODY_ACTION]
>  [OBJECT_MODIFIERS...]
> }

If you can provide us with mathematical formulae and/or algorithms to test...

(1) whether a given point is inside the "human",

(2) where (if at all) a ray from a given origin in a given direction intersects
the surface of the "human", and

(3) what the surface orientation is at that intersection

then we might consider this proposal for a new inbuilt geometric shape.


Until then, we must conclude that implementation of "human" as a dedicated
geometric primitive in the rendering engine is impossible, and that the shape
must instead be implemented using the existing geometric primitives and/or CSG.

In that case, implementing the shape as a macro is just about as good as
implementing it in the parser, and your call might as well go out to the entire
POV-Ray community, rather than the POV-Ray dev team; as a matter of fact, I dare
say the community members tend to have better modelling skills than the members
of the dev team.


It might be worth noting that some members of the community have already
successfully created blob- and/or CSG-based human shapes, and might be willing
to share their work provided they get due credit, while others are successfully
using DAZ studio and/or Poser in combination with PoseRay for this purpose.


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From: Sven Littkowski
Subject: Re: Most Needed: New Shape: Human
Date: 16 Dec 2015 22:53:03
Message: <5671eb4f@news.povray.org>
Yes, Clipka, your answer points to the problem I try to solve with my
suggestion: to have some human shape available to all POV-Ray users,
without having the need to beg others or having to purchase for big
(sometimes less) money. Most scenes are dead, they lack life. If PO-Ray
could come along with objects of life for its users, many scenes created
wouldn't be so dead anymore.

But I also agree, that such a human shape would be consisting of a
combination of shapes already known. But not everyone has these
modelling skills. I, too, lack these skills. Even getting a blob shape
to the way I want, is almost impossible for me, after dozens of
attempts. :-)

Maybe, to extend my suggestion, POV-Ray could ask its users who know how
to create human shapes, if one of them would be willing to offer such a
macro or shape collection to POV-Ray, and to be credited for that. Same
way, as other developers get credited for their works on other shapes or
functions.

i still think, my suggestion has some flesh on the skeleton. :-)

On 16.12.2015 09:14, clipka wrote:

> If you can provide us with mathematical formulae and/or algorithms to
test...
>
> (1) whether a given point is inside the "human",
>
> (2) where (if at all) a ray from a given origin in a given direction
intersects
> the surface of the "human", and
>
> (3) what the surface orientation is at that intersection
>
> then we might consider this proposal for a new inbuilt geometric shape.
>
>
> Until then, we must conclude that implementation of "human" as a dedicated
> geometric primitive in the rendering engine is impossible, and that
the shape
> must instead be implemented using the existing geometric primitives
and/or CSG.
>
> In that case, implementing the shape as a macro is just about as good as
> implementing it in the parser, and your call might as well go out to
the entire
> POV-Ray community, rather than the POV-Ray dev team; as a matter of
fact, I dare
> say the community members tend to have better modelling skills than
the members
> of the dev team.
>
>
> It might be worth noting that some members of the community have already
> successfully created blob- and/or CSG-based human shapes, and might be
willing
> to share their work provided they get due credit, while others are
successfully
> using DAZ studio and/or Poser in combination with PoseRay for this
purpose.


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From: Alain
Subject: Re: Most Needed: New Shape: Human
Date: 17 Dec 2015 01:01:19
Message: <5672095f@news.povray.org>
Le 15-12-15 21:47, Sven Littkowski a écrit :
> I once again want to suggest to the shape developers of POV-Ray, to add
> the following new shape to the POV-Ray shape collection:
>
> HUMAN
>
> This shape would greatly serve as reference to countless scenes. And
> this shape could be manipulated the following way: The human statement
> creates a human shape standing at the coordinates < 0.0, 0.0, 0.0 > and
> towering along the Y axis, the body facing the same direction as an
> "image_map". There are a few body modifications possible. The syntax is:
>
> human
> {
>   Body_height
>   [waist_angle WAIST_ANGLE] [head_angle HEAD_ANGLE]
>   [face_action FACE_ACTION] [body_action BODY_ACTION]
>   [OBJECT_MODIFIERS...]
> }
>

You may take a look at blobman.
Compared to that, your parameters list is way to small.
You need to provide:
angle at the hip (2D), knee and ankle, with tortion (both 2D), as well 
as the position of each toes (3D), for each leg.
a bend angle (forward-back and sideway) and tortion angle for the torso.
angle got the shoulder (2D), elbow (2D), wrist (3D) and fingers 
positions for each fingers (4 values per finger including the thumb) for 
both arms.
mouth opening and thongue position
eyes orientation and distance
facial expression
ears location

That's about it for the positioning.
Next, some details:
skin, eyes and hairs colours.
lips and nipples colour.
sex, with optionaly breasts size, form, placement,...
hight
weight
weight distribution
divergence of leg and harms length relative to the average.
muscularity/build
age from child, or even new born, to adult.
...

That's a *LOT* of parameters!


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From: clipka
Subject: Re: Most Needed: New Shape: Human
Date: 17 Dec 2015 01:59:55
Message: <5672171b$1@news.povray.org>
Am 16.12.2015 um 23:52 schrieb Sven Littkowski:

> Maybe, to extend my suggestion, POV-Ray could ask its users who know how
> to create human shapes, if one of them would be willing to offer such a
> macro or shape collection to POV-Ray, and to be credited for that. Same
> way, as other developers get credited for their works on other shapes or
> functions.
> 
> i still think, my suggestion has some flesh on the skeleton. :-)

Let me re-iterate: It isn't the job of "POV-Ray" (by which I presume you
mean the dev team) to run around begging for such a donation, just
because /one/ user calls it an essential feature.

You know, somehow this feels to me a bit as if you're trying to coax the
POV-Ray team into coaxing the community to provide /you/ with such a
shape for free, because for some reason the community has so far not
been willing to provide you with such a shape directly.


To the best of my knowledge, nobody other than you has ever suggested
that POV-Ray must have such a feature.

This doesn't mean other people wouldn't love to have such a feature -- I
guess there are plenty out there who would give three cheers or more.
But I think the reason none of them has ever asked the POV-Ray
developers to provide such a shape (or see to it that someone else
provides it) is that they are fully aware that such a shape is a hell
lot of work, and that anyone asking for such a piece of work for free
/must/ reasonably be prepared to accept "no" for an answer.


So -- here's /my/ answer:

    No.


If anyone of their own free will and generosity should happen to wish to
donate such a shape to the POV-Ray project, to be distributed as part of
the standard include files or sample scenes, then I guess the POV-Ray
dev team will happily accept the gift. But I, as one member of that
team, will not go around begging for such a donation, for the same
reasons that beggars don't go around begging for, say, a Rolex. It's
just too impudent.


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From: Sven Littkowski
Subject: Re: Most Needed: New Shape: Human
Date: 17 Dec 2015 11:53:27
Message: <5672a237@news.povray.org>
Yes, I know. I started up my suggestion with those parameters, but
decided then that this would be more impractical than practical for most
users. And so i decided to use only a very few of such angle parameters,
and otherwise work with predefined positions.

Well, what Clipka says above, is also a good point. But i remember over
the years and decades some more people who mentioned this wish, though I
cannot find their postings here anymore (inside my newsreader).

I just hope, someone will like this idea and offer such a big gift. In a
world where almost everything (but POV-Ray) is commercial and for money
only, i hope that some users share the POV-Ray spirit and can decide to
make such a donation to POV-Ray. If i could develop such a figure, i
actually would. Same with my spaceship I am developing, I wouldn't mind
to offer it to our free POV-Ray for free if there would be an interest.
Strange that only I seems to think that way. Maybe i am the last
survivor of a mankind that does not see the money as only possibility of
being. At least, POV-Ray is also still freely available...
:-)

On 16.12.2015 20:01, Alain wrote:
> Le 15-12-15 21:47, Sven Littkowski a écrit :
>> I once again want to suggest to the shape developers of POV-Ray, to add
>> the following new shape to the POV-Ray shape collection:
>>
>> HUMAN
>>
>> This shape would greatly serve as reference to countless scenes. And
>> this shape could be manipulated the following way: The human statement
>> creates a human shape standing at the coordinates < 0.0, 0.0, 0.0 > and
>> towering along the Y axis, the body facing the same direction as an
>> "image_map". There are a few body modifications possible. The syntax is:
>>
>> human
>> {
>>   Body_height
>>   [waist_angle WAIST_ANGLE] [head_angle HEAD_ANGLE]
>>   [face_action FACE_ACTION] [body_action BODY_ACTION]
>>   [OBJECT_MODIFIERS...]
>> }
>>
> 
> You may take a look at blobman.
> Compared to that, your parameters list is way to small.
> You need to provide:
> angle at the hip (2D), knee and ankle, with tortion (both 2D), as well
> as the position of each toes (3D), for each leg.
> a bend angle (forward-back and sideway) and tortion angle for the torso.
> angle got the shoulder (2D), elbow (2D), wrist (3D) and fingers
> positions for each fingers (4 values per finger including the thumb) for
> both arms.
> mouth opening and thongue position
> eyes orientation and distance
> facial expression
> ears location
> 
> That's about it for the positioning.
> Next, some details:
> skin, eyes and hairs colours.
> lips and nipples colour.
> sex, with optionaly breasts size, form, placement,...
> hight
> weight
> weight distribution
> divergence of leg and harms length relative to the average.
> muscularity/build
> age from child, or even new born, to adult.
> ...
> 
> That's a *LOT* of parameters!
>


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From: Thomas de Groot
Subject: Re: Most Needed: New Shape: Human
Date: 17 Dec 2015 12:23:41
Message: <5672a94d$1@news.povray.org>
On 17-12-2015 12:53, Sven Littkowski wrote:
> I just hope, someone will like this idea and offer such a big gift. In a
> world where almost everything (but POV-Ray) is commercial and for money
> only, i hope that some users share the POV-Ray spirit and can decide to
> make such a donation to POV-Ray. If i could develop such a figure, i
> actually would. Same with my spaceship I am developing, I wouldn't mind
> to offer it to our free POV-Ray for free if there would be an interest.
> Strange that only I seems to think that way. Maybe i am the last
> survivor of a mankind that does not see the money as only possibility of
> being. At least, POV-Ray is also still freely available...
> :-)
>

No need for dispair. MakeHuman is free:

http://www.makehuman.org/


-- 
Thomas


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From: Cousin Ricky
Subject: Re: Most Needed: New Shape: Human
Date: 17 Dec 2015 13:35:01
Message: <web.5672b8f5f0fb6f09e44f714f0@news.povray.org>
clipka <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
> This doesn't mean other people wouldn't love to have such a feature -- I
> guess there are plenty out there who would give three cheers or more.
> But I think the reason none of them has ever asked the POV-Ray
> developers to provide such a shape (or see to it that someone else
> provides it) is that they are fully aware that such a shape is a hell
> lot of work, and that anyone asking for such a piece of work for free
> /must/ reasonably be prepared to accept "no" for an answer.

This is one reason I have not been so impudent as to ask for this feature.
(Another is the reason Thomas gave: users' needs are too diverse for a
one-size-fits-all solution, and I don't consider POV-Ray to be all about me.)


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