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From: St 
Subject: Website Update
Date: 13 Mar 2007 16:20:09
Message: <45f6dd49@news.povray.org>
Hi all

     Well, I had a chat with the website guy today, and he's got this 
http://colin.bluesky-technologies.com/ set up for me (and you), to ponder 
over. It's very basic at the moment just to show how all it works. 
Basically, you would log in, go to the upload page and upload your image, 
the image is then automatically turned into a thumbnail, and that image 
would then link to your original, full sized image. There is an automatic 
rating system which needs fine-honing to work somewhat like the IRTC rating 
system, but this is accessable on all pages containing an image. If you 
uploaded the wrong image and wanted to delete it, you can do that through 
your member area. The only thing that concerns me at the moment is the 
possibility of an entrant to be able to rate his/her own image. If anyone 
knows how this can be overcome, I'd appreciate your thoughts.

    This format also keeps statistics which would be available through me, 
as admin, where I could easily collect the scores etc. At present, the 
member area isn't working, (or is, but I don't have the password or UN), but 
I would imagine that 'your' member area is very much like the admin area 
here: http://colin.bluesky-technologies.com/admin/ with the exception of 
stuff like 'view stats' or 'view to do list' (check that page out).

   un: admin
   pw: admin

   (In the very near future, these above links may not work as the website 
guy, Colin, may change them at his end).

   (Hint: About the upload page, your text file would be pasted into the 
field where it says: "A small story goes..." (Thoughts about that page?))

    Lastly, none of this is written in PoV-Ray Stone22 yet. (Although, I owe 
the guy a drink!)  ;)

    I could do this, or, I don't have to. It really depends on YOU if you 
want this to happen. Again, hands up.

   And the last 'lastly', as you can see from this site, it's pretty well 
automated, so I won't be doing much work in that area, but all I wanted to 
say is, if I (we) don't go for it, then I'm more than happy to keep this 
going until I run out of space... http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/3dextra/

    Overall thoughts?

    ~Steve~


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From: St 
Subject: Re: Website Update
Date: 14 Mar 2007 01:35:48
Message: <45f75f84@news.povray.org>
LOL! Thank you for looking Mr. Lobster!  :o)

     ~Steve~


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From: Trevor G Quayle
Subject: Re: Website Update
Date: 14 Mar 2007 01:45:57
Message: <45f761e5$1@news.povray.org>
"St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote in message news:45f75f84@news.povray.org...
> LOL! Thank you for looking Mr. Lobster!  :o)
>
>     ~Steve~
>
>

hehe, thanks, that's my little guy for Hallowe'en.  Glad to see something is 
in the process of getting to be working.

As for comments, it looks good so far (outside the colours, but I'm sure 
that will change) and the operation.  As I mentioned before, have a look at 
how CGSphere works for some ideas.  One thing for voting, I do like the irtc 
concept of 3 voting categories vs just a single vote ranking.  I think it 
gives more room for varying ideas and concepts (which the CGSphere forum 
lacks IMO)

-tgq


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From: St 
Subject: Re: Website Update
Date: 14 Mar 2007 02:19:02
Message: <45f769a6@news.povray.org>
"Trevor G Quayle" <Tin### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message 
news:45f761e5$1@news.povray.org...
> "St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote in message news:45f75f84@news.povray.org...
>> LOL! Thank you for looking Mr. Lobster!  :o)
>>
>>     ~Steve~
>>
>>
>
> hehe, thanks, that's my little guy for Hallowe'en.  Glad to see something 
> is in the process of getting to be working.

    One can only try...

>
> As for comments, it looks good so far (outside the colours, but I'm sure 
> that will change) and the operation.

   Thanks, and yes, and yes.


As I mentioned before, have a look at
> how CGSphere works for some ideas.  One thing for voting, I do like the 
> irtc concept of 3 voting categories vs just a single vote ranking.

   Yes, I plan to change this as I like that system too, (and it's in 
keeping with the IRTC). Each image could have three of those rating 
drop-down fields beneath the image; one for Artistic Merit, one for 
Technical Merit, and one for Concept and Originality - and all marks would 
be out of 20, like the IRTC.



 I think it
> gives more room for varying ideas and concepts (which the CGSphere forum 
> lacks IMO)

    I agree. And whilst I do like CGSphere, I also don't like them for not 
having PoV-Ray on their list... <shrugs>

    ~Steve~


>
> -tgq
>


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From: Jim Charter
Subject: Re: Website Update
Date: 14 Mar 2007 15:07:22
Message: <45f81dba@news.povray.org>
St. wrote:
>   Hi all
> 
>      Well, I had a chat with the website guy today, and he's got this 
> http://colin.bluesky-technologies.com/ set up for me (and you), to ponder 
> over. It's very basic at the moment just to show how all it works. 
> Basically, you would log in, go to the upload page and upload your image, 
> the image is then automatically turned into a thumbnail, and that image 
> would then link to your original, full sized image. There is an automatic 
> rating system which needs fine-honing to work somewhat like the IRTC rating 
> system, but this is accessable on all pages containing an image. If you 
> uploaded the wrong image and wanted to delete it, you can do that through 
> your member area. The only thing that concerns me at the moment is the 
> possibility of an entrant to be able to rate his/her own image. If anyone 
> knows how this can be overcome, I'd appreciate your thoughts.
> 
>     This format also keeps statistics which would be available through me, 
> as admin, where I could easily collect the scores etc. At present, the 
> member area isn't working, (or is, but I don't have the password or UN), but 
> I would imagine that 'your' member area is very much like the admin area 
> here: http://colin.bluesky-technologies.com/admin/ with the exception of 
> stuff like 'view stats' or 'view to do list' (check that page out).
> 
>    un: admin
>    pw: admin
> 
>    (In the very near future, these above links may not work as the website 
> guy, Colin, may change them at his end).
> 
>    (Hint: About the upload page, your text file would be pasted into the 
> field where it says: "A small story goes..." (Thoughts about that page?))
> 
>     Lastly, none of this is written in PoV-Ray Stone22 yet. (Although, I owe 
> the guy a drink!)  ;)
> 
>     I could do this, or, I don't have to. It really depends on YOU if you 
> want this to happen. Again, hands up.
> 
>    And the last 'lastly', as you can see from this site, it's pretty well 
> automated, so I won't be doing much work in that area, but all I wanted to 
> say is, if I (we) don't go for it, then I'm more than happy to keep this 
> going until I run out of space... http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/3dextra/
> 
>     Overall thoughts?
> 
>     ~Steve~
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
Looks good Steve.


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From: St 
Subject: Re: Website Update
Date: 16 Mar 2007 16:38:48
Message: <45fad628$1@news.povray.org>
Well, I'm seeing the website guy on Sunday (this guy works all hours). 
I've decided that I'm going for it, pennies allowing. It will probably be 
called 'TC-RTC' dot blah... I think I'll run two bi-monthly parallel 
competitions. One will be; 'TC' - TINA CHeP. No topic at all for this one, 
just the theme of 'This Is Not A CHeckered Plane). Interpret it as you will. 
Highest rating gets mucho kudosso.

     The next one will be 'RTC' - Ray-Tracing Competition. This will be set 
with a topic chosen by using the system that Greg Johnson came up with 
whereby old book titles are used as the topic, (see other posts). Having two 
types of competition gives you a better choice if the chosen RTC topic 
doesn't suit 'your' style. The RTC will run exactly the same as the IRTC 
stills competition, with the exception of a higher file-size to 350kb's, (TC 
too), and a different topic-picking system. We will still be able to vote 
much like the IRTC, (which still needs honing), but I'm not sure about how 
you would comment on the images yet, but hopefully, this can be implemented 
too.

    Any other idea's, let me know here.

     Anyway, that's it for now.  :)

       ~Steve~


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From: Shay
Subject: Re: Website Update
Date: 23 Mar 2007 17:40:00
Message: <46041f00$1@news.povray.org>
St. wrote:
>     Any other idea's, let me know here.
> 


Wow! I hadn't heard about the IRTC, and here you are starting another
one from the ground up! Some thoughts:

==> Voting

Three category voting is cool in concept but was a failure for the IRTC.
The average standard deviation between categories for each single entry
in 2006 was .59 or just under 3% of the maximum deviation of 20. Proof
that the system did not work.

Streamlining the voting process might encourage more participation.

Scaling the votes would provide a result more consistent with the true
opinions of the voters. By scaling, I mean that the standard deviation
of each voter's votes would be "corrected" to 1. This would be very easy
to automate. Here's an example:

UNSCALED:
        entry1 entry2 entry3 entry4 entry5 entry6 entry7 stan_dev
voter1     11     10      7      8      7      8      7     1.60
voter2     16     15     12     13     14     12      6     3.26
voter3     16     15     10     13      6     11      8     3.64
voter4     16     11      6     16     11      6     16     4.50
voter5     12      9      9     12     10      6      9     2.07
voter6     16      9     14     16     15     10      8     3.46
voter7      0     20     20     20     20     20     20     7.56
Total:     87     89     78     98     83     73     74
Rank:       3      2      5      1      4      7      6

See the problem? Six of the Seven voters preferred entry1, but because
of the "deviant" way in which voter7 ranked the images, entry1 is in
third place. Here's the "scaled" version:

SCALED:
        entry1 entry2 entry3 entry4 entry5 entry6 entry7 stan_dev
voter1  10.62  10.00   8.13   8.75   8.13   8.75   8.13     1.00
voter2  11.84  11.53  10.61  10.92  11.23  10.61   8.77     1.00
voter3  11.65  11.37  10.00  10.82   8.90  10.27   9.45     1.00
voter4  11.33  10.22   9.11  11.33  10.22   9.11  11.33     1.00
voter5  10.97   9.52   9.52  10.97  10.00   8.07   9.52     1.00
voter6  11.74   9.71  11.16  11.74  11.45  10.00   9.42     1.00
voter7   8.68  11.32  11.32  11.32  11.32  11.32  11.32     1.00
Total:  76.83  73.68  69.85  75.86  71.25  68.14  67.95
Rank:       1      3      5      2      4      6      7

Entry1 is now in first place, as most of the voters believe it should
be. This system isn't perfect, but it is an improvement. There is
nothing wrong about the way voter7 voted. There will always be those who
see the world in 0s and 20s. There will always be those who see the
world in 2s and 3s (a problem for everyone else, because 2s and 3s guy
can't vote for his own entry). All types of voting should be weighed
equally.

Here are the formulas for this scaling if you are interested:
SD = Standard Deviation for a set of values
A = average of all values in the set
N = number of values in the set
Set = the set

SD = pow(sum(pow(Set[0]-A, 2)+pow(Set[0]-A, 2)+...), 1/2)

Subtract the Average of all values from each single value and
Square the result. Then, add all of the squared values together and take
the square root of that.

To adjust the standard deviation of a set, just ...

10 + (value-10)/SD

for each value in the set. The 10 could be anything or nothing. It's
there to make the results look like IRTC numbers.

==> Participation

I've always though the IRTC should be a freeware only competition and
that a name should be chosen which invites Scan Line rendered as well as
Ray Traced entries. I would be nice to see the Pixie, Wings, etc.
communities encouraged to participate.

I like the idea of the continuous Tina Chep topic. Will there be a
rating system? I'm going to think on Tina Chep and try to come up with
something. Are you in need of $$ contributions?

 -Shay


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From: sdfdf
Subject: Re: Website Update
Date: 8 Apr 2007 15:05:03
Message: <web.46190486f73787dd20b85cc60@news.povray.org>
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From: Mike the Elder
Subject: Re: Website Update
Date: 9 Apr 2007 18:40:01
Message: <web.461a8698f73787ddf30be9d60@news.povray.org>
Shay <not### [at] notmailcom> wrote:

> Scaling the votes would provide a result more consistent with the true
> opinions of the voters. By scaling, I mean that the standard deviation
> of each voter's votes would be "corrected" to 1. This would be very easy
> to automate. Here's an example:
> ...
> See the problem? Six of the Seven voters preferred entry1, but because
> of the "deviant" way in which voter7 ranked the images, entry1 is in
> third place.


"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide
everything".
-Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili

Mere mathematical correction might be insufficient for dealing with those
who cast "deviant" votes. Perhaps we could establish re-education centers
where the "voter7s" of the world could become acquainted with the joys of
voting with the herd.

Moo.


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From: stm31415
Subject: Re: Website Update
Date: 14 Apr 2007 04:55:02
Message: <web.46205d7ff73787ddfc02165f0@news.povray.org>
> "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide
> everything".
> -Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili
>


Oddly enough, there is no possible way --- it is literally IMPOSSIBLE --- to
create a method of voting (other than one person votes as a dictator) that
will avoid this problem of the majority of people being unhappy. Many
systems make it mildly less likey, but there is no single system in which
it won't happen sometimes. The guy who proved that won the nobel in
economics, as I recall.

-
Sam Bleckley


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